OI Detective Work

#1

OK....here's a quiz for you all. Take a look at the following pictures.
Something is wrong somewhere. The can is a Neuweiler's....and to
figure it out you will need to have your Lilek book handy.

Rand

#2

Lilek 564. Hmmmm, I don't see anything different about it. Must be that case of brick wall syndrome I was recently diagnosed with.

#3

beercanman wrote:Lilek 564. Hmmmm, I don't see anything different about it.

Yea....technically a 564.....and something else.

#4

No, 546 is nothing like that can. I said it looks like a 564 to me.

#5

beercanman wrote:No, 546 is nothing like that can. I said it looks like a 564 to me.

Corrected.....my lisdexia is acting up.....

#6

Looks the same to me too.

I know, LETS VOTE ON IT!

Is it:

A)

Or could it be:

B)

Hmmmm..... this could be a close one.

#7

Well before looking in the book i was going to say there arent any "quotes" but the version in the book looks the same. colors look the same as well as the font in the wording, spacing and the can opener look identical...only differnce i can see is yours has a little more rust?...what are we missing????
mike

#8

Sorry.....perhaps I didn't give enough information. Yes.....technically it is a #564.....but it is so much more. Take a look at this picture of the front. Where have you seen this rust pattern before?

Rand

#9

Ok i see it now..i see the virgin mary in the rust!!!...wait or is it jesus?....ok so im still lost. is the can a paint over and im not seeing what underneath? Im dying to know but im missing it.
mike

#10

Wow, good eyes Rand (and Herman). Yet ANOTHER fake one in the book. Doesn't even say anything about "thought to exist" or anything like that, just says "this example in the only one known" or something like that. Obviously the printer in China was working overtime when that page was printed. Jeeesh!

#11

Well done Rand. It does beg the question WHY???? How many more cans in the book are "faked"? (I mean besides the Pilsengold Bock)

#12

Wow that is a good eye, wasnt even looking for that...ok so being the can is fake ,fake yours and paint some quotes and you can have the super rare one of a kind actual can in the book....whats the number up to now..12,13?
mike

#13

YEP! You all got it!

Just in case others didn't understand this last flurry of posts, I picked up a Lilek #564 a while back.....but in studying it.....I realized that it was the same can used to make the picture for #565 except the book faked in some quotes around CANCO.

Now....the interesting question. I think it is undeniable that I have a #564 for my shelf.....so I can check that off the list. However, since I have the actual can pictured in 565......and.....565 is an R10......can I also check #565 off my list? Did I just get 2 cans for the price of one?

Rand

#14

I too was seeing everything from the virgin Mary to Bert Renyolds in the rust pattern as well. Then I put all your coy clues together and deduced that the can #565 aint the real deal. Added little quotation marks!?!?

Ha-rumph

-fallscityfreak.

#15

PreWar wrote:Anyone care to post the composite list of suspected and confirmed "faked" cans from the Lilek book? I cant find the file, and since I didnt compile it, Its really not mine to post...

If someone has that.....I'd be happy to turn it into an HTML document for posting on the site.

Rand

#16

Krueger's Special
Manhattan Ale 4 panel
Esslinger's Bock quart
Hornung #418 $ 419 are the same O/I panel
Hornung Bock IRTP- probably the most obvious one in the book
Krueger #481 with white enamel is actually #480. Just found this one now, bummer.
Narragansett Pale # 553 is a combination of 551 & 552 (why?)
Neuweilers #565 (thanks Rand)
Neuweilers #566 & 567 are the same can. Which one's real?
Old St Louis Beer/Ale #610 & 612 L side panels
Peter Doelger Ale #667 & 668 rt side panels are the same can
Doelger Beer/Bock #670 & 673 are the same side panel
Doelger Beer/Bock #672 & 675 are also the same side panels
Peter Hand #676
Poths #687 & 690 are the same side panels

There's 15 right there, I'm sure there's more.

#17

OMG! I am glad I didn't overpay for the book on eBay...

Anyone have one cheap for sale?

#18

Rustmonger wrote:Krueger's Special
Manhattan Ale 4 panel
Esslinger's Bock quart
Hornung #418 $ 419 are the same O/I panel
Hornung Bock IRTP- probably the most obvious one in the book
Krueger #481 with white enamel is actually #480. Just found this one now, bummer.
Narragansett Pale # 553 is a combination of 551 & 552 (why?)
Neuweilers #565 (thanks Rand)
Neuweilers #566 & 567 are the same can. Which one's real?
Old St Louis Beer/Ale #610 & 612 L side panels
Peter Doelger Ale #667 & 668 rt side panels are the same can
Doelger Beer/Bock #670 & 673 are the same side panel
Doelger Beer/Bock #672 & 675 are also the same side panels
Peter Hand #676
Poths #687 & 690 are the same side panels

There's 15 right there, I'm sure there's more.

Thanks for the list.....just went through it.....and didn't
see the issue with 4 of them. Also, the Poths, if you note....the
front is the same too. Ale is faked in. However, I didn't see:

Peter Hand 676 - Don't see that one.

Doelger 670/3 - Don't see that one.

Doelger 667/8 - Don't see that one.

St Louis 610/2 - Don't see that one

#19

PreWar wrote:....sutff....

Got it....thanks.

Rand

#20

Pilsengold Bock???

#21

Damn, there are more! Info to follow

#22

PreWar wrote:been a while since posting on this thread, but I wanted to add this that Jon S brought to my attention...

Anyone notice anthing about this can? Again Lilek book reference will be required...

any comments on this one??

The can is the one photographed for page 82 but is actually an 83.

I need to start a list and get it put on a web page.....

Rand

#23

Yea but..... that can was found in the brewery rafters in the early 50's! With a back story like that it CAN'T be fake! I suppose the Chinese printer changed the text in the book too!? Unfriggin real! This whole book is like an outhouse pit. The deeper you dig, the more it stinks.

#24

PreWar wrote:Opinions as to what these revelations continue to do to this book??

I'm still a big fan of the book. The reason is, that it at least attempts to document every minor variation. While there are clearly "issues", those issues can be further documented (like we are doing now) and asterisks applied appropriately.

The BCCA book completely avoids many variations and as a consequence is less useful as a reference book than Lilek. It is easy to cull or asterisk Lilek. It is impossible to invent and document data into the BCCA book.

$.02

Rand

#25

Haven't gone to look at the Neuweilers (I thought it said see illustrations, plural, but has only the opener and no second illustration?) but Dave Waugh's orginal post (I printed it out, and will make copies for anyone) detailed at length how he diagnosed the fakes. I bought a rubber stamp kit and stamped those pages '100% pure bogus beer can.' Unfortunately the ink took forever to dry and I smudged a few. Not as many as he did, though!

The story I heard was that Bob Porter told Kevin about the quotation marks differences very late in Kevin's work, so I guess there was an understandable urge to picture the can even without one in hand. 2 or 3 of the Waugh Fakes are in the same class- according to good sources they actually do exist but Kevin was simply unable to photo the cans for one reason or another. Not quite as big a no-no as purely fictional cans, but perhaps Kevin had heard that kind of rumor about all those that he faked os he felt like he was representing what really existed out there, aside from the repaint jobs he presents as credible. This wouldn't justify what he did, but at least makes it a little more understandable.

T-minus one month and counting til the tab book comes out. Aside from the prices being out of date already, major labels missed, east coast cans undervalued, poor color reproduction, entire sets missing, and the presence of the pink chihuahua, it'll be a great book! (insert irony here) Seriously, the guys who worked on this book are like boy scouts- no photoshop fakes coming our way this time.

#26

PreWar wrote:been a while since posting on this thread, but I wanted to add this that Jon S brought to my attention...

Anyone notice anthing about this can? Again Lilek book reference will be required...

any comments on this one??

A while back I purchased a lot of Bay State cans from Kevin. When the box arrived it contained a hand written letter and the above can as a TOSS-IN. I was kind of taken back as this is a pretty decent can to just throw in. So I read and re-read his letter and couldn't make any sense out of what he was trying to say in it. Finally, I decided to just call him.

On the phone he told me a story that was equally hard to understand.......above can came from a collectors widow, he paid too much for it, the collector had altered it, etc., etc.

The bottom line was I FELT like he was just trying to make the can disappear so I shrugged my shoulders and put it on my shelf.

Recently, I put the can up on ebay and I was reading a thread of Rands so I got to looking at the can and then the book and low and behold. There it was photoshopped and all! Kevin had clearly told me which of the cans I bought were pictured and never spoke of this one so I had never looked for it. I called Herman and we chatted about it.

The thing is, I have been a great Kevin supporter all along. People would bag on him here about the book and my feeling has always been "shut up till you write one better."

But after discovering this and remembering the story its clear that Kevin was just INVENTING variations. And I cannot figure out why?????

One or two liberties in a book is one thing but when you start crossing out 15-20 pages it starts to make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

#27

When I got the original Lilek book I was so excited I spent HOURS and HOURS looking through those pages. Checked my shelfers to see how they ranked. Enjoyed seeing what other variations I needed to start hunting for. I was a contributor to the book and thought that was pretty cool, too. Wow - my name listed as a contributor to THE OI REFERENCE GUIDE! Awesome!

Then the discovery came that some of the cans were faked. Photoshopped. Made up. Imaginary. Whatever.

If you would all turn to the page listing the contributors ...

There? Okay, now look for my name (Steve Gordon in case you don't know me).

Now please cross out that name and write in "Name Withheld"

Thank you.

I haven't looked at the book since (except to check reference numbers on stuff people wanted from me). When some of that stuff turned out to be bogus I lost all interest in trying to enjoy the book. Actually, my interest in OIs dropped and my focus has zoomed in on my other specialties. Sure, OIs are still cool but this whole episode just soured me substantially on them. I'd rather throw my money at a nice local, bock, or WF flat now.

Steve

#28

Thank you thank you all for at least acknowledging that there are some irregularities in the book.

For a long time, I looked upon the Rusty Bunch as being hypoctical regarding fake cans but not pictures. Also, to me, to not at least acknowledge this seemed to diminish "expertise."

Now, I feel differently. At least there has been some acknowledgement of this. To me, this hurts collecting in that those who are not aware of this may never know and be led to believe the wrong thing.

I REALLY REALLY wanted to see a real Krueger Special.

Oh well, Thanks for discussing this.

#29

Hey Ed, there was plenty of acrimony over the fakes when it first popped up a couple years ago. Enough from enough quarters that you'd be sure to have a friend at whatever level your outrage reached, that's for sure.

But, Kevin still has a number of friends and defenders among us, and as a group we've pretty well managed to bury the hatchet on this dead horse rather than continue to beat each other and Kevin over the whole thing. Any new discoveries or angles ought to be mentioned as Rand did above, but I don't think any of us really feel like rehashing the whole debate as we've basically agreed to disagree on the bottom line.

#30

Oh the horror! The absolute horror! What has he done?!

Good work Inspector Clouseau! You found your a$$ with both hands!

I may never be able to look at my collection the same way!

To much time on my hands!

You guys really crack me up! They are beer cans for the love of Pete!

The absolute hypocrisy!

Later,

Tom Inman

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