The Manhattan Connection
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- Longopener
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I have a question about the name change. The story says that the brewery was bought in 1933 and the name changed to Canadian Ace Brewing. Is 1933 the right date or was the date that the name was changed omitted by the writer?
The other thing I often hear is that Al Capone was the person who ran the brewery. Since he was in jail at the time, I think people were arguing that Al himself was not running the brewery, not arguing that the mob wasn't running it.
The other thing I often hear is that Al Capone was the person who ran the brewery. Since he was in jail at the time, I think people were arguing that Al himself was not running the brewery, not arguing that the mob wasn't running it.
"Although the cans will be of no value after opened, their cost is expected to be small..." Iowa: June 22, 1935
Why drive 12 hour one way to dig Pre-Tax Tru Blu ales, Genny 12 Horse Longopeners, Gamecock Ales, Apollos, Neuweilers Bock, and Krueger’s Baldies when you can locally drive 10 hours round trip and dig Pfeiffer, Goebel, Drewrys and Strohs?
Why drive 12 hour one way to dig Pre-Tax Tru Blu ales, Genny 12 Horse Longopeners, Gamecock Ales, Apollos, Neuweilers Bock, and Krueger’s Baldies when you can locally drive 10 hours round trip and dig Pfeiffer, Goebel, Drewrys and Strohs?
- The Brad Meister
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- Longopener
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Thanks for the indepth report! Stuff like that...real DATA.....is the key to separating myth from fact! It always seemed a little odd that the word was that Al was the mastermind behind canadian Ace, but then again, the bigger the name, the bigger the tale! Great to have FACT triumph over falicy!
"Although the cans will be of no value after opened, their cost is expected to be small..." Iowa: June 22, 1935
Why drive 12 hour one way to dig Pre-Tax Tru Blu ales, Genny 12 Horse Longopeners, Gamecock Ales, Apollos, Neuweilers Bock, and Krueger’s Baldies when you can locally drive 10 hours round trip and dig Pfeiffer, Goebel, Drewrys and Strohs?
Why drive 12 hour one way to dig Pre-Tax Tru Blu ales, Genny 12 Horse Longopeners, Gamecock Ales, Apollos, Neuweilers Bock, and Krueger’s Baldies when you can locally drive 10 hours round trip and dig Pfeiffer, Goebel, Drewrys and Strohs?
- Wheaton
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Herman -
Your clippings are enjoyable reading! I wish you'd get in touch with Rich LaSusa and compare notes on Manhattan. While it's pretty clear that for purposes of doing business in the US, Manhattan was a legitimate enterprise...looks like you're into some of the shadier goings-on surrounding the dynasty.
Great stuff! Keep it coming!
Your clippings are enjoyable reading! I wish you'd get in touch with Rich LaSusa and compare notes on Manhattan. While it's pretty clear that for purposes of doing business in the US, Manhattan was a legitimate enterprise...looks like you're into some of the shadier goings-on surrounding the dynasty.
Great stuff! Keep it coming!
JOIN THE IRONGUTS UNION
We don't pay no stinkin' dues - we drink 'em!
D. L. Wheaton, President
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Endorsing all products from the Burnin' Rubber Brewing Company, particularly Old Finland Seabottom Over-Ripe Sulfuric Goat Cheese IPA. A Scandinavian favorite since 1840.
We don't pay no stinkin' dues - we drink 'em!
D. L. Wheaton, President
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Endorsing all products from the Burnin' Rubber Brewing Company, particularly Old Finland Seabottom Over-Ripe Sulfuric Goat Cheese IPA. A Scandinavian favorite since 1840.
- cansnatcher
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- ozarkridgerunner
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Hey Chris - Effective January 2nd, 1947, Manhattan changed their name to Canadian Ace - now some 60 years ago! Both Manhattan and CA were flagship brands in the Manhattan era, but evidentally only Manhattan was canned in those days. The cross-over CA IRTP Ale and Beer flats are tough (the CA beer IRTP cone is relatively common though). Cheers, Paul
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- Dave Lang
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Given all of the above very interesting commentary about the unsavory characters associated with Manhattan Brewing and its Canadian Ace brand, I think it's worthwhile to also note what eventually happened to that brand. Its dying days were spent in the embrace of the Hammonton, NJ brewery of many names and brands which also has been rumored (although, to my knowledge, not proven) to have been involved in some less than upright business practices. Wonder if there could have been any informal connections between those breweries?
I recall drinking Canadian Ace Ale and Beer in the 1950's as both products were sold in many parts of New England. It wasn't bad - but the stuff from Hammonton was no different from any of their other products -AWFUL! I'm sure Messrs. Capone, Nitti, and cohorts would not have been happy with what the Hammonton folks did to their product.
I recall drinking Canadian Ace Ale and Beer in the 1950's as both products were sold in many parts of New England. It wasn't bad - but the stuff from Hammonton was no different from any of their other products -AWFUL! I'm sure Messrs. Capone, Nitti, and cohorts would not have been happy with what the Hammonton folks did to their product.
- johnintexas
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Great Post Mr. Lang!!!
I enjoy your articles in the BCCA mag.
Thanks,
John
I enjoy your articles in the BCCA mag.
Thanks,
John
John B - RB#782
Collecting Rusty Texas & Southern Cans. Also collecting: St Charles/Louis MO and Some PA.
MOST WANTED: Travis & Southern Select "J" Spout
We say grace, we say mamm and if you ain't into that we don't give a damn!
Collecting Rusty Texas & Southern Cans. Also collecting: St Charles/Louis MO and Some PA.
MOST WANTED: Travis & Southern Select "J" Spout
We say grace, we say mamm and if you ain't into that we don't give a damn!
- ozarkridgerunner
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One thing to note, CA evidentially "piloted the wings" in the IRTP era as evidenced by these labels. It's odd ball examples like this that can throw the chronology out of whack - kind of like is the 4 panel Old Gold Others Pending with the mandatory newer than the 2 panel without the mandatory? Not sure where Kevin's USBCOI got the Circa 1937 on the former. I thought the mandatory was instituted in 1938 Certainly Manhattan would not have voluntarily placed the mandatory on the can. Paul
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The evidence seems to indicate that all of the ABC varieties (beers and ale) and the Old St. Louis varieties (beer and ale) were canned in St. Louis. I also think that the "checkerboard" can is older than the can with the more typical side panel. I know this contradicts Kevin Lilek's opinions, but no one can get the history of every OI can produced perfectly correct in time to get a book published. The 1935 to 1939 ABC products have there own unique instruction panels, and why would the St. Louis brewery not use the canning line that was known to be present at the plant?
However, it appears that the St. Louis Black Dallas and Triangle Deluxe were probably canned in Chicago. The Black Dallas and Triangle were probably marketed after 1940, and perhaps as late as 1943 unless war time restrictions prevented the metal from going to cans. Note that these two cans have instruction panels identical to all of the other Manhattan products of the same era (Manhattan, Old Gold, Prima, Ilsner, Cream Top, etc.).
However, it appears that the St. Louis Black Dallas and Triangle Deluxe were probably canned in Chicago. The Black Dallas and Triangle were probably marketed after 1940, and perhaps as late as 1943 unless war time restrictions prevented the metal from going to cans. Note that these two cans have instruction panels identical to all of the other Manhattan products of the same era (Manhattan, Old Gold, Prima, Ilsner, Cream Top, etc.).
Trade me your Lemp Brewery stuff!
- ozarkridgerunner
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Good stuff Herman, thanks for the info on the Old Golds. I love that ABC label - kind of like a Manhattan / ABC Rosetta Stone :)
I agree with kotto that the "checkerboard" ABC can is older than the can with the more typical side panel (I don't have my Lilek book in front of me and was unaware Kevin thinks the thick letter with "SAME AS BOTTLE" is older). There is a picture in one of special BCCA magazine publications (perhaps the 50th anniversary of the can?) that shows a display of very early OI cans, and as I recall, the thin letter ABC (AKA "checkerboard") is shown. That is not definately evidence, but I think it would attach a year to the can. Paul
I agree with kotto that the "checkerboard" ABC can is older than the can with the more typical side panel (I don't have my Lilek book in front of me and was unaware Kevin thinks the thick letter with "SAME AS BOTTLE" is older). There is a picture in one of special BCCA magazine publications (perhaps the 50th anniversary of the can?) that shows a display of very early OI cans, and as I recall, the thin letter ABC (AKA "checkerboard") is shown. That is not definately evidence, but I think it would attach a year to the can. Paul
- Bob L
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A few more notes on the ABC cans.....
Lilek has the order wrong. The order goes like this: 2A, 4, 3, 5, and then I'm not convinced that #6 dull grey is really different unless I could see it in person.
The canning codes that I have on my cans are all consistent with what has been stated here. There does seem to be a dead time in the chronology. Specifically...#2A, 4, and 3 all have a bow tie open on one side with no dots. The #5 can has a full bow tie with two dots.
I'm not sure distribution offers any hint of the origin of the different variations. #2A, 4, 3, and 5 have all been dumped in the Ozarks, but #5 was much more prevalent. I have only ever found #2A/4 and #3 on one or two occasions, and never in quantity. #5 has turned up in many places and in greater quantities. The #3 seems to be more common in the northwest. I've only ever heard of Black Dallas OI's coming from Texas and never from Missouri. The steamboat cans are all over the map: I've heard of California and Texas. Andy and I dug three steamboats at Lake of the Ozarks and Paul King and his buddy Rod found one at Sugertree on the Gasconade river. But there are two different side panel variations, which we call the "missouri version" and the "export version". The ABC ales seem to have only come from Colorado. And the one dump find of Steamboat ales came from West Virginia or somewhere out that way. One Triangle can surfaced in St. Louis and the other one (or two) supposedly were dumped in Florida of all places.
Also, on the Old Gold cans.....the one with the small solid black box that is pictured in Kevin's book is mine. He messed up the description in the first book #606, but then fixed it in the supplement #606. I just wanted to note that the wording under the box can be read with a magnifying glass and it truly does state, "Produced and Packed by Manhattan Brewing Company". Not "Brewed and...." and not Food City. This choice of "produced" does not appear on any other manhattan brand that I'm aware of. A curious detail. Also, #605A looks fishy to me. Possibly similar embellishment to some of the issues called out on the first book.
I love this Manhattan and ABC stuff and especially the crossover. Paul's label is just too cool. It is truly the Rosetta stone as he said. Keep it coming guys.
Lilek has the order wrong. The order goes like this: 2A, 4, 3, 5, and then I'm not convinced that #6 dull grey is really different unless I could see it in person.
The canning codes that I have on my cans are all consistent with what has been stated here. There does seem to be a dead time in the chronology. Specifically...#2A, 4, and 3 all have a bow tie open on one side with no dots. The #5 can has a full bow tie with two dots.
I'm not sure distribution offers any hint of the origin of the different variations. #2A, 4, 3, and 5 have all been dumped in the Ozarks, but #5 was much more prevalent. I have only ever found #2A/4 and #3 on one or two occasions, and never in quantity. #5 has turned up in many places and in greater quantities. The #3 seems to be more common in the northwest. I've only ever heard of Black Dallas OI's coming from Texas and never from Missouri. The steamboat cans are all over the map: I've heard of California and Texas. Andy and I dug three steamboats at Lake of the Ozarks and Paul King and his buddy Rod found one at Sugertree on the Gasconade river. But there are two different side panel variations, which we call the "missouri version" and the "export version". The ABC ales seem to have only come from Colorado. And the one dump find of Steamboat ales came from West Virginia or somewhere out that way. One Triangle can surfaced in St. Louis and the other one (or two) supposedly were dumped in Florida of all places.
Also, on the Old Gold cans.....the one with the small solid black box that is pictured in Kevin's book is mine. He messed up the description in the first book #606, but then fixed it in the supplement #606. I just wanted to note that the wording under the box can be read with a magnifying glass and it truly does state, "Produced and Packed by Manhattan Brewing Company". Not "Brewed and...." and not Food City. This choice of "produced" does not appear on any other manhattan brand that I'm aware of. A curious detail. Also, #605A looks fishy to me. Possibly similar embellishment to some of the issues called out on the first book.
I love this Manhattan and ABC stuff and especially the crossover. Paul's label is just too cool. It is truly the Rosetta stone as he said. Keep it coming guys.
- ozarkridgerunner
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Hey Herman, the Malt Mellow label design makes it look older than it actually is - your example is a post-IRTP label. The label comes IRTP by Manhattan (and maybe even IRTP by CA). Clinical beer just does not look appealing - it might taste good if the nurse came with it
Here is another brand with Manhattan / ABC commonality:
Also, the Time connection with BD is interesting, but makes sense because Time is out of Tejas.
[/img]
Here is another brand with Manhattan / ABC commonality:
Also, the Time connection with BD is interesting, but makes sense because Time is out of Tejas.
[/img]
- ozarkridgerunner
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Heres some Malt Mellow examples by Manhattan. Its funny how the nurse looks a bit different on both these and Hermans example.
Also included is another Old Union - this one by Mound City. Mountain Top also comes by Mound City and Manhattan. According top Bob Kay's fall article in the NABA mag, Mound City competed with Manhattan for the private label business. While I can't say for sure Old Union and Mountain Top were private labels, it is possible that they were sold exclusively at say, 905 liquors (I think kotto and BL have 905 ads with the Imperial OI that include advertising Mountain Top). Note the previous ABC Old Union mentions ABC Company, not ABC Corp. Also looks older than the other examples and has no brewed and bottled by statement. Makes me wonder if it was actually brewed and bottled at the ABC plant in St. Louis.
Don't know a lot about Mound City. I believe Don R. and Kevin K. published an NABA article about them - I will have to read and see if any direct Manhattan influence (not just good ol' competition) could have impacted their operations.
Also included is another Old Union - this one by Mound City. Mountain Top also comes by Mound City and Manhattan. According top Bob Kay's fall article in the NABA mag, Mound City competed with Manhattan for the private label business. While I can't say for sure Old Union and Mountain Top were private labels, it is possible that they were sold exclusively at say, 905 liquors (I think kotto and BL have 905 ads with the Imperial OI that include advertising Mountain Top). Note the previous ABC Old Union mentions ABC Company, not ABC Corp. Also looks older than the other examples and has no brewed and bottled by statement. Makes me wonder if it was actually brewed and bottled at the ABC plant in St. Louis.
Don't know a lot about Mound City. I believe Don R. and Kevin K. published an NABA article about them - I will have to read and see if any direct Manhattan influence (not just good ol' competition) could have impacted their operations.
- Bob L
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Paul and Herman,
Here's more on the Mound City/Mountain Top/ABC connection. Mountain Top was a house brand for 905 liquor stores in St. Louis. Here are two Mountain Top bottles I have. The one on the left is interesting. It is an overstrike black-out label. It originally said ABC Brewing Company, St. Louis, MO, but was blacked out and Mound City Brewing was added. The black line you see under "Beer" is the black out. Almost looks hand applied, as it kinda missed the target, and I can still read the ABC info. How does a paper label overstrike happen? At the label printer I guess. Would have had to have been before the labels got to the brewery. Unless there was a brewery connnection.....hmmm......Note that it is ABC Company, not Corp. The one on the right is from Springfield Brewing Co. in Springfield IL. Note that it has the "Sold exclusively at 905.." wording. I'm told that Mountain Top also comes with the Manhattan mandatory on it. And I've also seen it from Prima-Bismarck. Being a house brand for store chain, I think it was contract brewed by several breweries.
Here is the 905 store ad picturing the Imperial OI can and the Mountain Top bottle. This ad is from 1938.
Here are a couple other interesting 905 ads. Sometime in 1939 or 1940, Imperial and Mountain Top disappear from the 905 ads, and Cream Top and Prima are then featured prominently.
(Hopefully the images show up, my provider (charter) seems to be acting flaky again. What a miserable company. If they don't show, try refreshing or right clicking "show picture")
Here's more on the Mound City/Mountain Top/ABC connection. Mountain Top was a house brand for 905 liquor stores in St. Louis. Here are two Mountain Top bottles I have. The one on the left is interesting. It is an overstrike black-out label. It originally said ABC Brewing Company, St. Louis, MO, but was blacked out and Mound City Brewing was added. The black line you see under "Beer" is the black out. Almost looks hand applied, as it kinda missed the target, and I can still read the ABC info. How does a paper label overstrike happen? At the label printer I guess. Would have had to have been before the labels got to the brewery. Unless there was a brewery connnection.....hmmm......Note that it is ABC Company, not Corp. The one on the right is from Springfield Brewing Co. in Springfield IL. Note that it has the "Sold exclusively at 905.." wording. I'm told that Mountain Top also comes with the Manhattan mandatory on it. And I've also seen it from Prima-Bismarck. Being a house brand for store chain, I think it was contract brewed by several breweries.
Here is the 905 store ad picturing the Imperial OI can and the Mountain Top bottle. This ad is from 1938.
Here are a couple other interesting 905 ads. Sometime in 1939 or 1940, Imperial and Mountain Top disappear from the 905 ads, and Cream Top and Prima are then featured prominently.
(Hopefully the images show up, my provider (charter) seems to be acting flaky again. What a miserable company. If they don't show, try refreshing or right clicking "show picture")
- ozarkridgerunner
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Bob - That Old Manhattan sticks out as bass-ackwards. Who'd a thunk that they'd place Food City as a brewer on a namesake brand like Old Manhattan! Reminds me of the Manhattan Quarts (and to a lesser degree Prima Ale) cones with the brewed and packaged by Prima expressly for Manhattan verbiage (I may have mangled the exact wording as I no longer have the Quart and my Ale is pretty rough). Also, another cross over is the Old Vienna label - it comes by Food City and Manhattan.
Herman - I am not sure about the Superior. I can't find any published linkage (my archives are limited ) or cross-over Manhattan label examples. I do have a cross-over IRTP Windsor example by Great Lakes - not a single lake like Superior
Herman - I am not sure about the Superior. I can't find any published linkage (my archives are limited ) or cross-over Manhattan label examples. I do have a cross-over IRTP Windsor example by Great Lakes - not a single lake like Superior
- ozarkridgerunner
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Bob - I scored an Angler today at the Belleville show. I was bummed when you mentioned I missed one at swap-yo-mamma. This has been my #1 most wanted for a while. Does this look like the one you saw? Belleville show was great. Saw many friends and lots of decent deals. Brought the entire family. Kids loved the arcade game auction in the adjacent room - they could play many for free since they were for sale. Some bikers even bought me and the wife a beer - Cardinal World Series Champs Bud Light in aluminum bottles - not a Bud Light fan, but it hit the spot!
Go Cardinals!
Go Cardinals!
Cheers, Paul King
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
- ozarkridgerunner
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Hey Bob - This one is by Springfield Brewing Company, like your Mountain Top. Not sure if Angler comes in a Steine since your ads indicate the 12oz. bottles are returnable (long necks). I do know it comes in a Picnic. Don't have hard evidence of examples that have Manhattan listed, but according to Rich LaSusa and others, Angler is a Manhattan brand. Evidence seems to indicate this is likely since it appears in your ads alongside other brands having obvious linkage to Manhattan. Tavern Trove lists Angler along with a bunch of brands as known Manhattan Products. The list looks pretty good and I can vouch for most. I can't account for:
Pilsener Club Beer
Vintura Beer
Old Styvesant Beer
Rex Beer
loebock Beer (probably means Roebock's which is Manhattan)
Gold Eagle Beer
Drexels Beer
Blue Seal Beer
I'll see what I can dig up on these brands. Some obvious addition to the list include Imperial and ABC.
Pilsener Club Beer
Vintura Beer
Old Styvesant Beer
Rex Beer
loebock Beer (probably means Roebock's which is Manhattan)
Gold Eagle Beer
Drexels Beer
Blue Seal Beer
I'll see what I can dig up on these brands. Some obvious addition to the list include Imperial and ABC.
Cheers, Paul King
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
- Steve H.
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I also picked up some goodies at the Belleville show including these steinies.
St.Louis ABC Beer - has ABC Brewing Company St. Louis Blacked out and now reads Brewed & Bottled by Mound City Brewing Co. New Athens Illinois.
St. Louis ABC Ale - ABC Brewing Corporation St. Louis, Mo.
New Athens Beer Co beer - Brewed and Bottled for NEW ATHENS BEER COMPANY by Mound City Brewing Co. New Athens Ill. This Bottle is still full with a triangle on cap... Hmmm?
Steve H
St.Louis ABC Beer - has ABC Brewing Company St. Louis Blacked out and now reads Brewed & Bottled by Mound City Brewing Co. New Athens Illinois.
St. Louis ABC Ale - ABC Brewing Corporation St. Louis, Mo.
New Athens Beer Co beer - Brewed and Bottled for NEW ATHENS BEER COMPANY by Mound City Brewing Co. New Athens Ill. This Bottle is still full with a triangle on cap... Hmmm?
Steve H
- ozarkridgerunner
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Man I missed out! Those are awesome. I also missed out on at least one other cool obscure bottle by ABC. I almost missed out on the Angler as I got to the show late (relatively speaking 11:30AM) and at least 2 other people mentioned they were close to nabbing it, but decided to wait! The ABC by Mound City is a surprise to me, and the New Athens one is bizarre but not a total surprise. The one below is more subtle usage of ABC as a brand vs. yours. There was one like this one still available at the show when I arrived, but it was not Bohemian and had more red then black. The triangle crown seems to appear on New Athens and Mound City bottles. It does look "generic" so it makes me wonder what (if any) other breweries may have employed it. Gotta love these breweries because they keep coughing up interesting variations like these...
Cheers, Paul King
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
http://www.manhattanbrewing.com
Can you define freedom? You can't. Because you don't know what freedom is until you loose it. From the book "Brothers in Battle", quote attributed to unknown Dutchman
- benny_cohn
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On the subject of Lou Greenberg, my great aunt Elaine Ginsberg dated Mr. Greenberg for several months in the early 50s but decided he was "too fast" for her. She later introduced him/handed him off to her friend, Pearl, whom he later married, but they remained friends. My great aunt was dining in his dinner party on the night of his murder. She says that he received a phone call and said he had to attend to important business at his brewery and would be right back. As we know, he was shot dead shortly thereafter. She told me that she remebered him as warm, friendly, and a real gentleman.