The Court of Popular Opinion

[jacoby4664]

To be sure, this is a debate amongst cordial parties. Here in lies the issue, set forth for open debate. I purchased a crowntainer knowingly that it had been restored; in fact, informed by the seller up front, that it had been restored. I did not know how much, but have since learned that with very good authority, we can assume 95%+ of the silver paint is not original. Though under the restoration, on this can 97% of the silver paint was in fact intact. This can appears to be the can in the book. It was probably, when found, the best example known. The can in it original condition, would still be. And, without further ado, I ask the forum of the Rusty Bunch.......what is this can worth? 99.9% 0f the script is original.

[CVforMe]

Subtract 80%

[OctoberAle]

I recall seeing that can, or one in similar condition, for sale at a Canvention several years ago, along with a Graupner's Old German. I was certainly intrigued by them both, but the ask was too high for me to pursue, as I hadn't really committed to keeping crowntainers yet. Knowing now that it is repainted, it's not a can I would collect, I'm sorry to say.

On a related note, I had initially purchased the Hoff Brau Ale dull gray crowntainer out of Gene's collection, but when I got it home I realized the spout had been restored. I returned the can the next day, having confirmed that this was the case after talking to Bob McCoy, who was a former owner of the can. As badly as I wanted an example of that can, the repaint just killed it for me. Now, had the can been $500 instead of 3,000+, perhaps I would have shelved it with some reservations. So, to answer your question, a can like that would have to be $500 or less before I would consider it, and even then I would likely reject it.

[jacoby4664]

Thank you for the above opinions. What I am coming away with, in this experience with restored cans, is that this can in particular, as I have sought and found first hand knowledge of it prior to being restored, would be worth north of $10,000, if it had not been restored. It had minimal issues, a small blemish on the front that amounted to almost nothing and a few small spots on the back in the fields, not affecting any paint but silver. I see Gary Gauger's can on line, and as this can is described, it was better than that can, which I believe is the best one known. I don't have one drop of restoration on my shelf, the couple cans I had, have long since been sent away. This is a tough one. On one hand I am being informed I may have under paid for it. On the other, it isn't worth much at all anymore. In my experience, when both the buyer and seller are unhappy, you probably have a fair agreement. I have two of them, one restored, one all original. Which one would you keep?

[OctoberAle]

Well, it's really unfortunate that the can was repainted. That said, I would not keep that crusty dumper over the repaint. But I'm collecting in a more limited way than you are, and I can see your interest in shelving either example.

If only that overpaint could be removed...

[DURTBAGG]

Hey Bill
Restored or not, that is one beautiful crowntainer and simply put, it’s worth whatever you were comfortable paying for it!

Sending you a PM

[Scott]

Ultimately the can is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay with full knowledge of the "restoration" that has occurred. Personally in spite of its issues, I'd display the clean one as the other will stick out like an eyesore.

It's a true shame that somebody had a smokin' hot babe who was a solid 9.5 and foolishly thought she could be improved with botox and a boob job.

[jacoby4664]

Ultimately the can is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay with full knowledge of the "restoration" that has occurred. Personally in spite of its issues, I'd display the clean one as the other will stick out like an eyesore.

It's a true shame that somebody had a smokin' hot babe who was a solid 9.5 and foolishly thought she could be improved with botox and a boob job.

Well stated.

[ConeAddict]

From your description I would guess that is one of the cans Ted Larsen had restored back in the 90's. He was selling a lot of those on ebay at one time a few years ago and if I was to throw a number out there I would say they got about 50% of ongrade value, maybe a little more. From memory I remember a silver Kato FBIR and a Beverwyck FBIR going in the $700-800 range and a low pro Fitgers about the same. I know he has told me that most of those cans were pretty nice to begin with and the original paint is underneath, to me that puts them a step above rolled cans but most here may disagree with that. I would keep it since it is sounds impossible to find a cleaner one.

Has anyone ever tried to remove that paint on one of these cans? There are some tough cans among them including this one if it is indeed from that group. A Little Dutch Jspout, Red Lion cone, Kings Taste cone, probably a few others I am forgetting.

[CVforMe]

From your description I would guess that is one of the cans Ted Larsen had restored back in the 90's. He was selling a lot of those on ebay at one time a few years ago and if I was to throw a number out there I would say they got about 50% of ongrade value, maybe a little more. From memory I remember a silver Kato FBIR and a Beverwyck FBIR going in the $700-800 range and a low pro Fitgers about the same. I know he has told me that most of those cans were pretty nice to begin with and the original paint is underneath, to me that puts them a step above rolled cans but most here may disagree with that. I would keep it since it is sounds impossible to find a cleaner one.

Has anyone ever tried to remove that paint on one of these cans? There are some tough cans among them including this one if it is indeed from that group. A Little Dutch Jspout, Red Lion cone, Kings Taste cone, probably a few others I am forgetting.

Yes. That rings a bell. I got burned on a couple of these by a certain dealer years ago. The repaints/"restorations" were very well done... Didn't know until later when I went to sell the cans at a show that they had been molested. I think thats about the time the smart buyers started to carry black lights with them to shows. And that is the reason I quit buying so many cans.
One of the big/famous buyers at that time was taken for many thousands of dollars from the same dealer, and a big stink followed.
After that mess, the dealer still sold those cans, but "legitimately" , by identifying the repaints with a Letter 'R" inscribed or otherwise written on the bottom lids. A real turd to the hobby.

[CVforMe]

On a brighter note, that Silver Stock is an awesome can. I am glad you got it, and I'm sure it is happy to be in your collection with its cousins.
(KEEP BOTH!)

[mtracy64]

I bought a $4,000 St. Claire Ale that turned out be a professional repaint job, and the seller later sold it for $750. The Good Guys recently sold a repainted Schultz Ale for $1,600 at auction. The can sold for $4,000 a few years prior (undisclosed). I'd imagine prices for these will be very volatile on these, depending on rarity and who's buying. I had a friend text me during the Good Guys auction and ask if I was bidding on the Schultz, and I told him I was out when it passed $300. It was done poorly enough that I can't believe it passed as all-original.

There are dozens and dozens of these "turds to the hobby" out there, and we'll never flush them all. Rob Skalla got burned on four of them and had them at Blue/Grey one year to raise awareness. One was Leidig's Pilsener, but I don't remember the others now. There was a Pilgrim Ale that was short a finger out there too. A prominent collector of instructional cans bought enough of them that he threatened legal action when he found out and the seller offered to buy them back for half. A prominent cone collector (and sycophant) publicly stated that he preferred the repaints to original offgrade cans and happily bought a lot of them.

Marc

[jacoby4664]

I bought a $4,000 St. Claire Ale that turned out be a professional repaint job, and the seller later sold it for $750. The Good Guys recently sold a repainted Schultz Ale for $1,600 at auction. The can sold for $4,000 a few years prior (undisclosed). I'd imagine prices for these will be very volatile on these, depending on rarity and who's buying. I had a friend text me during the Good Guys auction and ask if I was bidding on the Schultz, and I told him I was out when it passed $300. It was done poorly enough that I can't believe it passed as all-original.

There are dozens and dozens of these "turds to the hobby" out there, and we'll never flush them all. Rob Skalla got burned on four of them and had them at Blue/Grey one year to raise awareness. One was Leidig's Pilsener, but I don't remember the others now. There was a Pilgrim Ale that was short a finger out there too. A prominent collector of instructional cans bought enough of them that he threatened legal action when he found out and the seller offered to buy them back for half. A prominent cone collector (and sycophant) publicly stated that he preferred the repaints to original offgrade cans and happily bought a lot of them.

Marc

If that is the same St Claire Ale I saw a couple years ago, unbelievable job on the repaint. I was stunned at how accurate the can was painted. Then it was put under a black light and BOOM!!! That was a real eye opener.

[mtracy64]

I bought a $4,000 St. Claire Ale that turned out be a professional repaint job, and the seller later sold it for $750. The Good Guys recently sold a repainted Schultz Ale for $1,600 at auction. The can sold for $4,000 a few years prior (undisclosed). I'd imagine prices for these will be very volatile on these, depending on rarity and who's buying. I had a friend text me during the Good Guys auction and ask if I was bidding on the Schultz, and I told him I was out when it passed $300. It was done poorly enough that I can't believe it passed as all-original.

There are dozens and dozens of these "turds to the hobby" out there, and we'll never flush them all. Rob Skalla got burned on four of them and had them at Blue/Grey one year to raise awareness. One was Leidig's Pilsener, but I don't remember the others now. There was a Pilgrim Ale that was short a finger out there too. A prominent collector of instructional cans bought enough of them that he threatened legal action when he found out and the seller offered to buy them back for half. A prominent cone collector (and sycophant) publicly stated that he preferred the repaints to original offgrade cans and happily bought a lot of them.

Marc

If that is the same St Claire Ale I saw a couple years ago, unbelievable job on the repaint. I was stunned at how accurate the can was painted. Then it was put under a black light and BOOM!!! That was a real eye opener.

One end of the banner was a little off on one side of the can or I might not have noticed. I found a few other things afterwards, but not until I was already convinced it was repainted. It did come from your area, so it's likely the same can. The artist, now deceased, did get really good.

Marc

[jacoby4664]

I bought a $4,000 St. Claire Ale that turned out be a professional repaint job, and the seller later sold it for $750. The Good Guys recently sold a repainted Schultz Ale for $1,600 at auction. The can sold for $4,000 a few years prior (undisclosed). I'd imagine prices for these will be very volatile on these, depending on rarity and who's buying. I had a friend text me during the Good Guys auction and ask if I was bidding on the Schultz, and I told him I was out when it passed $300. It was done poorly enough that I can't believe it passed as all-original.

There are dozens and dozens of these "turds to the hobby" out there, and we'll never flush them all. Rob Skalla got burned on four of them and had them at Blue/Grey one year to raise awareness. One was Leidig's Pilsener, but I don't remember the others now. There was a Pilgrim Ale that was short a finger out there too. A prominent collector of instructional cans bought enough of them that he threatened legal action when he found out and the seller offered to buy them back for half. A prominent cone collector (and sycophant) publicly stated that he preferred the repaints to original offgrade cans and happily bought a lot of them.

Marc

If that is the same St Claire Ale I saw a couple years ago, unbelievable job on the repaint. I was stunned at how accurate the can was painted. Then it was put under a black light and BOOM!!! That was a real eye opener.

One end of the banner was a little off on one side of the can or I might not have noticed. I found a few other things afterwards, but not until I was already convinced it was repainted. It did come from your area, so it's likely the same can. The artist, now deceased, did get really good.

Marc

Marc, If you were to buy this can, the Silver Stock, what value do you feel it would have?

[mtracy64]

If that is the same St Claire Ale I saw a couple years ago, unbelievable job on the repaint. I was stunned at how accurate the can was painted. Then it was put under a black light and BOOM!!! That was a real eye opener.

One end of the banner was a little off on one side of the can or I might not have noticed. I found a few other things afterwards, but not until I was already convinced it was repainted. It did come from your area, so it's likely the same can. The artist, now deceased, did get really good.

Marc

Marc, If you were to buy this can, the Silver Stock, what value do you feel it would have?

I really don't know, Bill. I'm sure you've seen my comments about the various things I specialize in, but the J-Spouts are the only thing I collect as fervently as you collect the Crowntainers . . . all minor variations, condition I wouldn't accept on other cans, etc. I've been doing it for 24 years now, and some interesting notions have crept into my head regarding what I should have on the shelf as a specialist close to completing the group. An all-original Fehr's was mandatory due to the great disparity in numbers known versus converted mugs. An all-original Hohenadel Beer too - much tougher than an all-original Fehr's, but essentially the same issue due to large find of cans which all had the bottom cut out. I was only aware of two examples of the tougher Kamm's until a find of flat sheets occurred. I happily bought one and had it rolled, but over time it began to feel like cheating and I bought the Stark can from Gene. The Silver Stock situation isn't quite analogous to these, and your average condition is higher than mine so I'm not sure we would (or should) view the can in the same light. I'm far more likely to be relatively content with an outdoor can, even if I'd prefer it to be a little better, because I have quite a few others. If I didn't have an example and didn't believe I would see another, I'd have to consider the can and would need to do some serious thinking to try to assign a value to it. The market indicates that there are buyers for this type of can, and at price levels a bit higher than I expected. I'd just have to feel like I could get at least most of my money back if I obtained an example to replace it with, and I don't know what that number is. If I had your collection, I'd keep them both. I'd shelf the pretty one and keep the other one in case you change your mind - you obviously have some reservations or you wouldn't have started the discussion.

Marc

[pinnacle-project]

I strongly dislike cans that have been altered in any way (including new lids), but it is easy to see why this can is tempting to you.

[jacoby4664]

I recall seeing that can, or one in similar condition, for sale at a Canvention several years ago, along with a Graupner's Old German. I was certainly intrigued by them both, but the ask was too high for me to pursue, as I hadn't really committed to keeping crowntainers yet. Knowing now that it is repainted, it's not a can I would collect, I'm sorry to say.

On a related note, I had initially purchased the Hoff Brau Ale dull gray crowntainer out of Gene's collection, but when I got it home I realized the spout had been restored. I returned the can the next day, having confirmed that this was the case after talking to Bob McCoy, who was a former owner of the can. As badly as I wanted an example of that can, the repaint just killed it for me. Now, had the can been $500 instead of 3,000+, perhaps I would have shelved it with some reservations. So, to answer your question, a can like that would have to be $500 or less before I would consider it, and even then I would likely reject it.

I saw the Hoff Brau Ale at Gene's too, when I when there and was lucky to get 39 cronwtainers, 37 I needed. I was told it has been repainted on the crown by people there the same day. Even though the one I had at the time was rough, Grade 2, maybe 2+, I didn't give it a second thought. I have since upgraded. Coincidentally, in that group I bought, I purchased a very nice Bruck's Ale, upgrading substantially one of the two cans I had in my collection that had been touched up. The Silver Stock is just so rare, It is the only can I have, that I knowingly has restoration. I will keep my Grade 5 too, so I have an original. Maybe some day I will get one that is original and displayable and I can purge the restored can. Best I can do for now, thanks for your thoughts on the can. The most baffling part to me, is why was it done if the original can was a grade 1 can to begin with, so I am told.

[beercanman]

Bill,

Greed is the only explanation that makes sense. Take a grade 1 rare can and turn it into a 1+ rare can and you’ve just done the equivalent of printing money. What a shame. Personally, I wouldn’t have one on my shelf. Matt Menke discovered one of these creations on my shelf, and I couldn’t keep it there. I’d rather have a grade 4 example, or just a hole where the can should be. But that’s just me. Like Marc said, there’s some unknown value to these professional repaints. Too small an audience of future buyers to warrant putting any hope of recouping money spent.

[blake]

I'd have no problem with that can would enjoy looking at it while sitting at my bar drinking a cold one. The touched up cans are always the more expensive cans presumably to bring more money in sales .Why would you want fix a common can? I haven't heard of a collector that had their own cans touched up.

As for rolled cans, to me it doesn't matter who rolls it as long as it done correctly. I take a can that was pulled off the canning line by an employee and never filled. I had Art roll me a Falls Velvet and used donor top and bottom and it's one of my favorites.