Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#31

Post by beerhunter14 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:37 pm

I agree with Paul Nelson discuss Black/Purple FBIR Schlitz cone top. I just never seen one for sale, except I seen it in the old catalog of Larnwood Limited ( Now called Steel Canvas) . This was back in the early or middle years of 2000. But ConeAddict said, Maybe it was a Test Cans ?? I may be wrong on this one.



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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#32

Post by Leon » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:40 pm

here's a old pic of Pink Kato & Oddball Schlitz. LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#33

Post by Clarkston1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:04 pm

A few more MN and WI cans for consideration.
IF the list should include “test” cans.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#34

Post by menke » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm

On the test can vs. production can question... in that whole lot of cones from Tahoe that included the dark Schlitz and pink Kato- all the other cones in the lot were production cans, some quite rare, and those two are thought to be test cans because, presumably, only because no more have been found. Some test cans are found in quantity, and some production cans are unique so it sounds like preconceived notions abound!

I had the good fortune to talk to Bill Helmbold when I did a story on his big crowntainer find. When they first hit the light, Bill got all sorts of dismissive comments about how many, I think it was 13, were test cans and novelties rather than 'real.' Only because they were the first ones of their kind to surface... in the decades since, Bill has seen more than half of those "test" cans turn up elsewhere. So the few that are still unique, those HAVE to be test cans, right? wink, wink. Ask me again in 20 years and I'll still be rolling my eyes.

Every once in a while you get a little provenance with a can that gives a strong clue... but one thing's for sure, collectors who really want to believe something will continue to believe it.

If the Maier stein girl had turned up in Tahoe, it'd be thought a test can, right? There are tons of clues but very few ways to know for sure what exactly the true status is for many great labels. That's one great thing about rust...
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#35

Post by Matt Menghini » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:42 pm

I think the Silver cone was part of that find - and then sure enough 20 years later a few were dumped. All the Butte LP's were from the same group of indoor cans found together - and then sure enough 20 years later a few were dumped. Has happened several times for sure. Matt

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#36

Post by Leon » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:50 pm

Matt Menghini wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:42 pm
I think the Silver cone was part of that find - and then sure enough 20 years later a few were dumped. All the Butte LP's were from the same group of indoor cans found together - and then sure enough 20 years later a few were dumped. Has happened several times for sure. Matt

Same thing with White Hillmans.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#37

Post by Leon » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:51 pm

menke wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm
On the test can vs. production can question... in that whole lot of cones from Tahoe that included the dark Schlitz and pink Kato- all the other cones in the lot were production cans, some quite rare, and those two are thought to be test cans because, presumably, only because no more have been found. Some test cans are found in quantity, and some production cans are unique so it sounds like preconceived notions abound!

I had the good fortune to talk to Bill Helmbold when I did a story on his big crowntainer find. When they first hit the light, Bill got all sorts of dismissive comments about how many, I think it was 13, were test cans and novelties rather than 'real.' Only because they were the first ones of their kind to surface... in the decades since, Bill has seen more than half of those "test" cans turn up elsewhere. So the few that are still unique, those HAVE to be test cans, right? wink, wink. Ask me again in 20 years and I'll still be rolling my eyes.

Every once in a while you get a little provenance with a can that gives a strong clue... but one thing's for sure, collectors who really want to believe something will continue to believe it.

If the Maier stein girl had turned up in Tahoe, it'd be thought a test can, right? There are tons of clues but very few ways to know for sure what exactly the true status is for many great labels. That's one great thing about rust...


"On the test can vs. production can question... in that whole lot of cones from Tahoe that included the dark Schlitz and pink Kato- all the other cones in the lot were production cans"

Even that funny looking Goetz Country Club?
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#38

Post by texascans » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:54 pm

Pre 1960 Texas: This one held beer, the other two that I know of were rolled so this would be up there.
IMG_8920.JPG
Variations? This one has a battle ship gray base and I've only seen this one. This gets into the "how does one define a variation....."
SS 2C-3.jpg
Rare & Desirable - Pick one
IMG_8922.jpg

Odd ball mistakes not included. Most of the test cans that I know of from Texas were from 60's or 70'
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#39

Post by ConeAddict » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:54 pm

menke wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm
On the test can vs. production can question... in that whole lot of cones from Tahoe that included the dark Schlitz and pink Kato- all the other cones in the lot were production cans, some quite rare, and those two are thought to be test cans because, presumably, only because no more have been found. Some test cans are found in quantity, and some production cans are unique so it sounds like preconceived notions abound!

I had the good fortune to talk to Bill Helmbold when I did a story on his big crowntainer find. When they first hit the light, Bill got all sorts of dismissive comments about how many, I think it was 13, were test cans and novelties rather than 'real.' Only because they were the first ones of their kind to surface... in the decades since, Bill has seen more than half of those "test" cans turn up elsewhere. So the few that are still unique, those HAVE to be test cans, right? wink, wink. Ask me again in 20 years and I'll still be rolling my eyes.

Every once in a while you get a little provenance with a can that gives a strong clue... but one thing's for sure, collectors who really want to believe something will continue to believe it.

If the Maier stein girl had turned up in Tahoe, it'd be thought a test can, right? There are tons of clues but very few ways to know for sure what exactly the true status is for many great labels. That's one great thing about rust...
Well sure we never know if cans will turn up in dumps somewhere but the pink Kato actually says "Gold Label Beer" and I just found out from your Tahoe comment was discovered with the black Schlitz so with that along with the photo shoot story I think we can say with high degree of confidence that these weren't production cans.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#40

Post by mtracy64 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:18 pm

While I generally don't like to disagree with my friend Menke, I must do so here.

The "Not Leon's Cans" photo above is also not the Tahoe find, which was all cones - 55 of them, including the Silver Beer and the Royal Finest. I'm not certain what Leon's photo is, but I strongly suspect that it is part of a collection rather than a find.

Among the knowledgeable conetop collectors decades ago, a find referred to as "The Photographer Find" was well known. I'm certain I saw something in print about this find many years ago also, but I have no idea where. The find included the purple Schlitz, the pink Kato and the black Goetz, and the story on those cans was that they were made for the sole purpose of being photographed for use in black-and-white print advertising. I had the pleasure of seeing these cans at least once a year for 10 - 12 years, and the Schlitz is purple.

As for the Tahoe find, I see no reason to consider the Royal Finest a test can. It says right on it that is was made for export to the Philippines, so it would be absurd to call it a test can because it hasn't been dug in the U.S.

Regarding Steve's Texas cans, there are at least 14 Southern Select J-Spouts out there, probably more, so I'd rate both Travis cans as scarcer. Steve's Southern Select is by far the best outdoor example I've seen. Color me green with envy . . .

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#41

Post by idigrust » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:55 pm

Should we have a forum for this? Vote Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47107
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#42

Post by ConeAddict » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:48 pm

mtracy64 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:18 pm

As for the Tahoe find, I see no reason to consider the Royal Finest a test can. It says right on it that is was made for export to the Philippines, so it would be absurd to call it a test can because it hasn't been dug in the U.S.


Marc
But wasn't this a test can supposedly saved by a Rainier employee? I have always thought it was intended to be a production brand that was likely disrupted by the war. That the Philippines was at high risk to a Japanese attack probably wasn't much of a secret to the business world at the time so I could see some plans like this brand being scrapped quickly. The events at the time certainly make it one of the most interesting cans in the hobby.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#43

Post by Leon » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 pm

I think the Royal Finest was a legit production can. Nothing to make me think it is or was a test can. LEON.
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ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#44

Post by Leon » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:25 pm

Royal & Silver find. Many of us have seen these pics but some of the new Members probably have not. LEON.
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ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#45

Post by Clarkston1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:45 am

Top 10 Minnesota cans was discussed at length back in the day.
http://www.therustybunch.com/phpBB3/vie ... php?t=2635

Along with the Kato and Schlitz
http://www.therustybunch.com/phpBB3/vie ... php?t=1727
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#46

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:56 am

The lack of consensus amongst the knowledgeable MN collectors is interesting.

The Goetz Country Club FBIR was revealed as a fake by the KC collector who purchased (and then quickly un-purchased) it.

I'd be curious to see the Michigan list mentioned in the MN thread. I'd be lucky to get half the top ten right, despite living here for 54 years.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#47

Post by ConeAddict » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:24 am

For those here involved in the USBC supplement shouldn't the Goetz FBIR be delisted?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#48

Post by J. Page » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 am

I could make a case either way to delist the Goetz can. When I found the can was created with new top and bottom, I initially thought to delist it.
I have chosen to keep the can listed since it is shown in advertising as a flat bottom can. I'm still unsure whether this is the correct choice. I will entertain arguments either way.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#49

Post by Clarkston1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:13 pm

I’ll throw in what I consider my toughest 5 Michigan cans.

- The 4 panel Old Gold is probably the only true rare can.
- The Patrick Henry and Phoenix are not necessary rare cans but tough and a little heavy on the wallet (at least for me) in high grade condition.
- Goebel Bock from Detroit. IMO Is EXTREMELY difficult to get in high grade condition. In the past 15 years of getting back into collecting somewhat seriously I never saw another example available.
- Honers J-Spout - The book can is by far the best condition out there but this one may be second best known. I would love to be proven wrong on this but no one has posted clear all around pictures yet to verify one way or another.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#50

Post by Flat_Top » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:22 pm

I have no idea who ended up with this can. But I believe this Schmidt's Natural Brew quart is unique.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#51

Post by ConeAddict » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:22 pm

I think there is probably a good chance that at least some sample flat bottom cans were sent to the brewery even if the first production cans to arrive were concave bottom. The sequence of ads in the cone top bible dates the Goetz ad in Feb 36 and the Grain Belt, Glueks, El Rey, and Rainier in March. But since the only known example and the can pictured is a fake I would think delisting while still leaving it there like the Fritz J/Blitz Weinhardt may be the way to go. I guess it doesn't really matter much but I believed the can was known to exist and even relatively common for a long time and always looked closely at all the low pro ebay auctions to find one.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#52

Post by Flat_Top » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:39 pm

This is a list I put together a few years ago of rare Michigan cans. Except for the addition of the Schmidt’s Natural Brew quart, I don’t think the list has changed much. Bolded cans are ones I have in my collection.

Cones:
Schmidt’s Natural Brew quart cone
White Altes crowntainer
Beer crowntainer
Yellow Altes WF crowntainer
Copper Club Strong Beer cone
Fox Deluxe 12oz cone
E&B Light Lager cone with alcohol statement
Frankenmuth Air Free cone with black line
Honer's cone (any)
Copper Club cone with alcohol statement (any)
E&B Premium Beer cone non-irtp
Altes crowntainer with alcohol statement
Phoenix cone (more desirable than rare)

Flats:
Old Gold 4 Panel OI, Manhattan
Old Gold 4 Panel OI, Food City
Goebel OD
Fox Deluxe OD
Regal
Goebel Extra Dry WF
Schmidt's by Schmidt's
Yellow Pfeiffer, white shoe and blue pants
16oz Goebel PS22 enamel paint
11oz Goebel
Cardinal test can
White Goebel Bock (clean)
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#53

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:30 pm

The Michigan lists are a good example of my earlier comments on setting boundaries. The Honer's J is a textbook example of the need for a condition criteria. It doesn't make the top 25 if all grades are considered, and it tops the list along with the Schmidt's quart if only ongrade cans are considered. The first half of the Michigan list is easy either way. I'd want to exclude alcohol statements, metallic/enamel and tax variations myself, despite the fact that I do collect minor variations.

I hadn't thought on the topic of de-listing the FBIR Goetz Country Club until the suggestion was posted here. If it were the only collector-created can listed, I would leave it and add a note. With the further mention of the Fritz and Blitz cans, I'd vote to de-list all of them . . . unless the Fritz has an unlisted variation on the body of the can. If it's there only because of the lid, it doesn't belong any more than this LP Fehr's.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#54

Post by Plusonegolfer » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:34 pm

Leon wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:25 pm
Royal & Silver find. Many of us have seen these pics but some of the new Members probably have not. LEON.
If I had a find like that, I might still have a woodie thirty years later... :lol:

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#55

Post by Leon » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm

This Goetz Ad is from 1936 but I can't remember the exact month but I think I remember Thinking it was a FB/IR. :smt017 Leon.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#56

Post by Leon » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:53 pm

this 1936 Ad shows the Heilman Old Style & Burger in FB/IR while the Goetz Country Club & Horton are RR/CB. LEON.
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FAVORITE SAYING: WHY DUMP LOCALLY & FIND PROGRESS O/I's WHEN I CAN DRIVE A THOUSAND MILES AND FIND NOTHING.
NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
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Leon
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#57

Post by Leon » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:59 pm

Clarkston1 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:13 pm
I’ll throw in what I consider my toughest 5 Michigan cans.

- The 4 panel Old Gold is probably the only true rare can.
- The Patrick Henry and Phoenix are not necessary rare cans but tough and a little heavy on the wallet (at least for me) in high grade condition.
- Goebel Bock from Detroit. IMO Is EXTREMELY difficult to get in high grade condition. In the past 15 years of getting back into collecting somewhat seriously I never saw another example available.
- Honers J-Spout - The book can is by far the best condition out there but this one may be second best known. I would love to be proven wrong on this but no one has posted clear all around pictures yet to verify one way or another.

My Honers j-spout on left is pretty nice. LEON.
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NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#58

Post by ConeAddict » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Even if Goetz ran flat bottoms for only a month or 2 it seems like some should have turned up considering how common the concaves there are. My guess is that even though they signed on with Continental during the FBIR era they for whatever reason didn't place their first order until the concave's were out. Maybe their warehouse was full of bottles that had to be filled first.

Another thought on whether to delist would be that the fake was sold for $9000 before being discovered. It's still out there somewhere and keeping it listed might make others try the same thing, you have to think it's appearance in the ads was what likely inspired it's creation in the first place. I am no expert on canning codes or spotting re-lidded cans, if I had bought that can I would have probably shelved it and no one would know it's a fake.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#59

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:15 pm

Leon wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:53 pm
this 1936 Ad shows the Heilman Old Style & Burger in FB/IR while the Goetz Country Club & Horton are RR/CB. LEON.
Yes, but that's from December, 1936 and it isn't a can company ad and the cans clearly aren't all from the same time period. The pictured Tru Blu was obsolete by the time cans were photographed for the January, 1936 Fortune magazine article 'Beer Into Cans'. At least one ad exists showing a FBIR Goetz Country Club.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#60

Post by Leon » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:57 pm

Here's a link to my February 1936 FB/IR Goetz. LEON.

http://www.therustybunch.com/phpBB3/vie ... goetz+1936
FAVORITE SAYING: WHY DUMP LOCALLY & FIND PROGRESS O/I's WHEN I CAN DRIVE A THOUSAND MILES AND FIND NOTHING.
NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?

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