Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

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Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#1

Post by Plusonegolfer » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:43 pm

Has anyone ever tried to create a list of the rarest on-grade cans state by state? I’m trying to figure out what the rarest cans are from Wisconsin and Minnesota but thinking about that caused me to ask the larger question.



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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#2

Post by stringsx24now » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:48 pm

Closest thread might be the one located in archived section, "On going list of only one known cans..."
collector of Sick's Select, Senate, and Congress cans and breweriana, beer bags, as well as other fun stuff
Looking for Schuster Brewing of Rochester, MN items and Meyer Brewing of Bloomington, IL

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#3

Post by Paul Nelson » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:37 pm

Not sure about Minnesota, but for Wisconsin, I would say it’s the purple FBIR Schlitz
Wisconsin collector plus anything else that's cool looking.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#4

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:35 am

The pink Kato LP cone is believed to be unique.

Making, discussing and reworking this type of list is fun, interesting and informative, but the end result is often unsatisfactory. Boundaries need to be set as far as what counts . . . minor variations, major variations such as different back panels or Withdrawn Free, test cans, cans that were never filled, etc.

In the case of a list of rarest ongrade cans by state, the term "ongrade" needs clear definition because the definition of that term has slipped substantially over the years. Many collectors nowadays consider grade 1- cans ongrade, but collectors of ongrade cans historically considered grade 1 cans to be offgrade. Many states have several cans where no ongrade examples are known to exist as well. Do these cans top the list, or does an ongrade can need to exist in order for the can to be considered?

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#5

Post by ILLINICANS » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 pm

Marc Tracy.....care to list Chicagos 6 toughest in order ??

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#6

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:17 pm

ILLINICANS wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 pm
Marc Tracy.....care to list Chicagos 6 toughest in order ??
If I'm choosing the criteria, major label differences count and back panel and mandatory variations do not. 1st Hillman's, 2nd Hillman's, 1st Fox Deluxe, Silver Fox Deluxe OD, Meister Brau OD, Tiger. All are believed unique, so the only reasonable way to sort them would be lowest grade first and highest grade last, which would swap the order of the Hillman's. The OD's might swap too, and the Tiger might move between them. I saw the Silver Fox Deluxe OD before Adolph parted with it, but that was a long time ago and I don't have a clear memory of the condition.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#7

Post by Brent Gesland » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:49 pm

It is this can from Nebraska. A small Brewery that produced just one can in the late 1950's . The Storz Farmer and Winterbru flats from the late 1930's are sexy and get top dollar when for sale but this cone is hard to find.

Just saying....Brent G

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#8

Post by Leon » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:33 pm

mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:17 pm
ILLINICANS wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 pm
Marc Tracy.....care to list Chicagos 6 toughest in order ??
If I'm choosing the criteria, major label differences count and back panel and mandatory variations do not. 1st Hillman's, 2nd Hillman's, 1st Fox Deluxe, Silver Fox Deluxe OD, Meister Brau OD, Tiger. All are believed unique, so the only reasonable way to sort them would be lowest grade first and highest grade last, which would swap the order of the Hillman's. The OD's might swap too, and the Tiger might move between them. I saw the Silver Fox Deluxe OD before Adolph parted with it, but that was a long time ago and I don't have a clear memory of the condition.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#9

Post by MI-Cans » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm

I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#10

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm

MI-Cans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm
I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

(MI-Cans)
Yes, this type of list-making would require a "Manhattan Rule" too. My preference would be to mirror the way the cans are collected by those who collect a city or state. Ergo, the 4-Panel Old Gold that lists only Manhattan would be an Illinois can, and the one that lists only Food City would be both a Michigan can and an Illinois can because we know it was brewed and filled in Illinois.

I would prefer that where a can was sold, and even more so where it was dug, would be irrelevant.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#11

Post by Plusonegolfer » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:50 pm

mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm
MI-Cans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm
I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

(MI-Cans)
If a label was brewed and filled in one state, are you saying it could still be from somewhere else? Or did I misunderstand?

Yes, this type of list-making would require a "Manhattan Rule" too. My preference would be to mirror the way the cans are collected by those who collect a city or state. Ergo, the 4-Panel Old Gold that lists only Manhattan would be an Illinois can, and the one that lists only Food City would be both a Michigan can and an Illinois can because we know it was brewed and filled in Illinois.

I would prefer that where a can was sold, and even more so where it was dug, would be irrelevant.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#12

Post by mtracy64 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:32 pm

Plusonegolfer wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:50 pm
mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm
MI-Cans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm
I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

(MI-Cans)
If a label was brewed and filled in one state, are you saying it could still be from somewhere else? Or did I misunderstand?

Yes, this type of list-making would require a "Manhattan Rule" too. My preference would be to mirror the way the cans are collected by those who collect a city or state. Ergo, the 4-Panel Old Gold that lists only Manhattan would be an Illinois can, and the one that lists only Food City would be both a Michigan can and an Illinois can because we know it was brewed and filled in Illinois.

I would prefer that where a can was sold, and even more so where it was dug, would be irrelevant.

Marc
First, I was mistaken on the 4-Panel Old Gold listing only Manhattan - it lists Food City also.

Manhattan was fond of listing only the company that contracted them to brew beer and fill cans for them, until the FAA required the mandatory to include the actual brewer's information. These cans sometimes state "Packed Expressly For . . ." and sometimes just list the name of the company that contracted Manhattan, with no mention of brewing or filling. Most Chicago collectors I know consider these Manhattan cans, while collectors of the states/cities listed consider them to belong to the listed location. It's difficult to argue with the logic of either group, so I don't.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#13

Post by willssoda » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:34 pm

I know the soda for Washington state. Black Cherry Sunny jim😬
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Interested in all flat and Cone Soda and Water cans.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#14

Post by chicagocans » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:15 pm

mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm
MI-Cans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm
I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

(MI-Cans)
Yes, this type of list-making would require a "Manhattan Rule" too. My preference would be to mirror the way the cans are collected by those who collect a city or state. Ergo, the 4-Panel Old Gold that lists only Manhattan would be an Illinois can, and the one that lists only Food City would be both a Michigan can and an Illinois can because we know it was brewed and filled in Illinois.

I would prefer that where a can was sold, and even more so where it was dug, would be irrelevant.

Marc
I go by the Mandatory, not what we know (or think we know).

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#15

Post by Dan B » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:33 pm

There are two Silver Fox OD cans known. One is Springfield, IL and one in N. IL that one comes off the list.

Dan B

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#16

Post by mtracy64 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:09 am

Dan B wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:33 pm
There are two Silver Fox OD cans known. One is Springfield, IL and one in N. IL that one comes off the list.

Dan B
Thanks, Dan. How does the 2nd one compare to Adolph's former can for condition?

I can't think of another unique Chicago can at the moment.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#17

Post by mtracy64 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:37 am

chicagocans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:15 pm
mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm
MI-Cans wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 pm
I'm sorry. Excuse my ignorance here.

How is a can tied to a state with regards to this topic?

Does it have to be manufactured in that state?
Does it have to be filled in that state?
Does it have to be sold in that state?
Does it just have to be found or dumped in that state?

Curious mind...just wants to know...

(MI-Cans)
Yes, this type of list-making would require a "Manhattan Rule" too. My preference would be to mirror the way the cans are collected by those who collect a city or state. Ergo, the 4-Panel Old Gold that lists only Manhattan would be an Illinois can, and the one that lists only Food City would be both a Michigan can and an Illinois can because we know it was brewed and filled in Illinois.

I would prefer that where a can was sold, and even more so where it was dug, would be irrelevant.

Marc
I go by the Mandatory, not what we know (or think we know).
OK, but there was no mandatory until 1938, when the FAA mandated that the brewery of origin be listed. If you flip through the USBC-OI, you'll notice that many cans changed only to add "brewed and packaged by", or similar text. That text, accompanied by the name of the brewery of origin, is the definition of the mandatory. Manhattan Brewing Co.'s shenanigans appear to be the primary reason for the mandate.

And as far as "what we know" vs. "what we think we know", the Badger cans are a handy example. The first one lists only Whitewater, with nothing listed about brewing or packaging. The second one lists "Packed Expressly For Whitewater", and third one carries the Manhattan mandatory and "Under Special Contract With Whitewater". I'd need some very strong evidence to even consider the possibility that any of the cans wasn't filled by Manhattan.

Marc

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#18

Post by Dan B » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:39 am

Marc,

The other Silver Fox that is not the Grenke can is very nice, about a half of a grade less then Grenkes can.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#19

Post by ConeAddict » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:37 pm

mtracy64 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:35 am
The pink Kato LP cone is believed to be unique.

Making, discussing and reworking this type of list is fun, interesting and informative, but the end result is often unsatisfactory. Boundaries need to be set as far as what counts . . . minor variations, major variations such as different back panels or Withdrawn Free, test cans, cans that were never filled, etc.

In the case of a list of rarest ongrade cans by state, the term "ongrade" needs clear definition because the definition of that term has slipped substantially over the years. Many collectors nowadays consider grade 1- cans ongrade, but collectors of ongrade cans historically considered grade 1 cans to be offgrade. Many states have several cans where no ongrade examples are known to exist as well. Do these cans top the list, or does an ongrade can need to exist in order for the can to be considered?

Marc
I would take likely test cans like the pink Kato, black Schlitz, and Royal Finest out, they are amazing pieces of breweriana but not cans I would use for "toughest can" just because you can probably find unique cans like that in many states. I consider 1- cans ongrade, if they look clean on the shelf that's good enough for me. Really when you think about it true 1+ cans were likely pulled before going through production as cans get nicked up on the lines, in transport, and when consumed.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#20

Post by jinsequa » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:39 pm

Oregon....
If you are talking rarity of absolute numbers irregardless of price or style...
1. Some of the one off production runs by G. Heileman/Blitz-Weinhard towards the end of their run in Portland, OR. (1990's)
A. Aloha Lager (6 or 7 exist - I have 4)
B. Any of the G. Heilman overseas exports (Red Ribbon- Red Ribbon light - Red Ribbon Ginseng, Old Style Lager, Birra malt, Canadian Colt 45)
C. Henry Weinhard's Lager - Taiwan export lid with a British importers company name painted on the seam sold on cruise ships (Rich Clark has one)
D. Eastside by Blitz Weinhard (Rich Clark has one)
E. Colt 45 by Blitz Weinhard (know of 2)
2. USBC 2 226 37 0 Blitz Weinhard test can - I would love to know how many of those exist. I know Pokey has one.
3. "Like" USBC 1 039 29 0 Blitz Weinhard- but it has light blue lettering matching the background light blue color. (know of 1)
4. Olde English Stout Malt Liqour - "Like" USBC 2 103 13 0 (tab) but production flat that came out of the Grenke collection (1 known)
5. Pabst Blue Ribbon by Blitz Weinhard without the wheat stalks (the old Pabst label) 12 & 16 oz. - I have seen one of each. Pabst changed the label VERY shortly after they bought Blitz Weinhard to the wheat stalk label and never released the old label for sale and turned them into bank top giveaways. Bruce Higgins has the 12oz. and the 16oz. has only been seen in an ebay listing where it was an after thought in a lot of 6 pack holders and stubbies that went for several hundred dollars. The 16 oz can has never appeared again and I would love to find who got that lot.
6. Any of the Western Family near beers produced for export to Canada. Some list LaCrosse but were brewed/filled in Portland. (G. Heileman did lots of shenanigans on their mandatories for overseas exports....must not have the same rules for exported beer on mandatories?)
7. Bohemian Club flat by Bohemian on the seam but has "Brewed by Brew Corp of Oregon" on lid (know of 1,guessing a couple of more out there?)
8. Champagne Velvet blue gold flat by Bohemian on the seam but has "Brewed by Brew Corp. of Oregon" on the lid. (know of 1, guessing a couple of more out there?)
9. Honorable Mention: Any of the Cans filled in Portland during the 90's G. Heileman strike in Baltimore. (Ruppert, Midnight Dragon) I just don't how to identify which ones they are because it isn't noted on the can anywhere that I can decipher....

If you are talking rarity in condition.....
1. Either Olde Style version out of Salem, OR (2-3 in on grade condition? Calgary find is probably the best)
2. Brown Derby Quart out of Salem, OR (5-6 in on grade condition?)
3. Brew 66 out of Salem, OR (maybe 2 in minty condition?)



My 2 cents

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#21

Post by Clarkston1 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:15 pm

I think you must include desirability as a factor along with rarity, condition, and graphics.
Taking these variables into consideration for example the only indoor grade Regal OI from Michigan would command a multiple price premium over a similar rare can when just the numbers know to exist are taken into consideration.
Would a indoor grade Fox Deluxe 12 oz cone from Grand Rapids command as high a price (desirability) as the only know Regal OI...or would some obscure 12 oz aluminum tab from Michigan in the late 80’s be as desired ($$) as a indoor Honer’s conetop?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#22

Post by Plusonegolfer » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Clarkston1 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:15 pm
I think you must include desirability as a factor along with rarity, condition, and graphics.
Taking these variables into consideration for example the only indoor grade Regal OI from Michigan would command a multiple price premium over a similar rare can when just the numbers know to exist are taken into consideration.
Would a indoor grade Fox Deluxe 12 oz cone from Grand Rapids command as high a price (desirability) as the only know Regal OI...or would some obscure 12 oz aluminum tab from Michigan in the late 80’s be as desired ($$) as a indoor Honer’s conetop?
These are excellent points and I agree that desirability is a huge factor in our hobby. This isn’t to say that tab collectors won’t drool over rare tabs from the 80’s, but a unique OI sure seems to have significantly more overall allure.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#23

Post by jinsequa » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:54 am

Since I have all the cones, flats and straight steel cans in the area (PacNW) I collect that are even remotely obtainable, aluminum is the only thing left for me to acquire. Therefore, those obscure aluminum cans are quite desirable. At this point, I pay what it takes to get a new can....even aluminum. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#24

Post by MarkB » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:51 pm

I think the original question is rarest, so it would be simply for which cans are the fewest are know to exist. It might be some aluminum can that only a couple of specialists want, or that 1935 can. And there are likely several tied for "rarest" from states with multiple breweries. It's a good question, especially if we widen it beyond the usual suspects among the flats and cones.

Desirability is another questions, which scarcity would affect, but there would be other factors. What would get more one eBay? Another Burger giant can, of which there are several known, or that one-of-a-kind aluminum from 1995 that only 2 guys are looking for?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#25

Post by eric » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:43 pm

You can make all sorts of lists, just make sure they are titled appropriately:

"Rarest cans by state"
"Most desirable cans by state"
"Hardest cans to acquire by state"
"Rarest cans excluding aluminum and test cans by state"
"Rarest cans that someone will ship to me for free by state"

The possibilities are endless and nobody will ever agree, but that's why we have a forum.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#26

Post by Plusonegolfer » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:05 pm

Ok, I started this particular thread and I love the comments. If you guys would help me make a list, I’d like it to be titled like this:

“rarest cans by state, pre-1960”

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#27

Post by Leon » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:52 pm

Pre 1960 would eliminate a lot of rare Michigan cans unfortunately. LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#28

Post by Clarkston1 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:16 pm

Have a 2nd list - Rarest cans by state, post 1960.

Off the top
For Minnesota I would nominate this can first.
Rare in terms of numbers know (high grade) and hard to get because of competition to buy it, would probably run 5 figures?

I guess the pink Kato may give it a good run for the money.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#29

Post by Plusonegolfer » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:39 pm

Clarkston1 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:16 pm
Have a 2nd list - Rarest cans by state, post 1960.

Off the top
For Minnesota I would nominate this can first.
Rare in terms of numbers know (high grade) and hard to get because of competition to buy it, would probably run 5 figures?

I guess the pink Kato may give it a good run for the money.
Two things in response to the above. 1. I agree that the pink Kate and Kiewels should be on the MN list.
2. I’ll pay 20K tomorrow for the Kiewels shown. :)

Who owns the pink Kato? Is there more than one known?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#30

Post by ConeAddict » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Just from doing some searches a while back I think the Pink Kato and Black/Purple Schlitz FBIR's were test cans made for a photo shoot of cans, those colors photographed well in B&W. So they are thought oo be unique and were saved by someone involved in it. I think someone scored a great deal on the Kato off of a dealer who wasn't aware what he had.

Going back to the OP are the Kiewels LP and the Miller OD the rarest(non variation/test cans) cans in Minn/Wis?

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