Ongoing List of Only-One-Known Cans

[Leon]

If my only known Altes Withdrawnfree crowntainer did not count I dont think the Blue Boar will, Just a variation, Nice can though. LEON.

[cansnatcher]

agree with Leon. Variations could go on and on and we'd never know because there could be 100 that people never even noticed had a different font used.

[menke]

Yeah, no dice on the Blue Boar. Not only is the list of unique minor differences too long, but there are an awful lot of unknown variations and even larger quantities of known ones hiding on shelves everywhere. Guys just put the label up there and never notice the difference.

For example, Lilek photographed OI's for years all over the place, had great large scans available all the time, had tried to puzzle out even the tiniest canco codes, but only found the canco quotation mark difference just before publication. Multiply that by the number of non-OI cans, by the lack of detail compulsion among the rest of the hobby, by the decades of cans collected before ebay and the usbc, by the number of collections never visited by sharp-eyed variation hounds, and you start to get an idea of how incomplete and incorrect that list would be. Sticking to major label differences stands a chance of getting everything in one list someday, we might be only missing a couple cases at the moment. That's mostly because a major label will jump out at the biggest dummy among us, so mostly what slips by are cans like the Phillipsburg Old German or the Joe Z Hillman's that get stashed in inactive collections for decades or are as yet still buried in a pit or wall someplace.

I'm not discriminating against variation guys (I am one), it's just the only criterion that is feasible enough to be useful.

[Cap-Sealed]

I disagree...Withdrawn-Free IRTPs do count as a new can. These cans were made especially for export.

[Lovegun]

Not sure why it wasnt posted here earlier, but the Redtop variation that Chris Huber posted on the site a couple of weeks ago. Resident Cincinnati expert Norm Meier has not seen one, so unless another example turns up, could be a 1 of a kind?

[Cap-Sealed]

I agree canning codes take it too far. W-Frees are a real varation. How about side panel varations - where the WF or the IRTP was blacked-out - do these count?

[mtracy64]

Well, we haven't been counting OI's with completely different backs/sides, and WF is minor compared to that. To this point - per the originator's criteria - we've been dealing only with major label differences.

Marc

[menke]

Right, Marc. Of course WF is a variation but in a sense it's just another tax designation like irtp or non-irtp. My purpose in this particular list was to get all the major label differences, not simply a brewery location or tax statement or alcohol statement, etc. Just the big stuff, to eventually maybe get a list 100 cans long. I missed the Huber, and have been offline for nearly a month during a move. @#$^@%&@%^ Now I'm back. What Huber did I miss?

Anyway, with something like that Miller that conceivably might not be legit I wouldn't update until I or someone whose judgement I trusted had a close, personal look at it. If there's an offgrade can that clearly has no touchup, then it's automatically 2 (or more) known. This can...hmmm. DirtCheap's probably running more off his printer this minute. Maybe it's time to watermark everything, Randy and Leon have the right idea. DC's stolen at least one of my cans off of ebay auctions already. His cans were for display or sale in at least three rooms at Canvention, nuff said. They're evil no matter what disclaimer is on them.

[mtracy64]

Huberman started the thread at the link below not long ago; the can is a Red Top Ale that differs significantly from the other versions. I don't know whether it's unique. It's a rolled can and therefore may not have been produced, but I think we've got the Lion Beer by Pilser's on the list and that's widely believed to be a test can and the known example is rolled, so it probably meets the criteria if it's the only one out there.

http://www.therustybunch.com/phpBB3/vie ... 03&p=61686

[beercanman]

For those of you who are BCCA members - please take a good look at my next column, Beer Can Closeup. There will be a new addition to this list, although once everyone checks their shelfers I doubt my can will remain a 1-of-a-kind for long.

[storzman]

I know only limited interest in the hobby on tall cans - but I can say with some confidence these 16's would meet the criteria Matt set as only know cans. Candidly - only known cans from the 1960's speak to a possibility that less actual cans were ever produced. You'd just have to think it would be easier to find the newer cans if there were lots of them out there in the ground or otherwise.

In addition to these 2 - I know a fellow 16oz collector has a 16oz Regal gold-trimmed flattop that I'd say is also unique. We corresponded and both thought we had the same Regal until we exchange photos and realized we likely both had unique cans.

If others have or know of any of these 3 cans - then the would not be unique. I have never seen another of them.

[menke]

Anyone else see these cans anywhere but Storzman's place? That Burgie is pretty wild... gotta love specialists- the Regal didn't even strike a chord with me until I looked at the one in the book. Dang!

The Esslinger's Bock quart adventure of a few weeks ago sheds fresh light on just how many cans lurk out there that no single person knows about. Turned out there were at least 50% more of them than any one person knew. If it weren't a bock can (or an OI), we'd know even less about it as a group. Tabs and late flats like this softop get largely ignored as we focus on the sexy stuff. It's much slower, and less of an exact science, to determine rarity.

[mtracy64]

The Esslinger's Bock quart adventure of a few weeks ago sheds fresh light on just how many cans lurk out there that no single person knows about. Turned out there were at least 50% more of them than any one person knew.

Not true; I knew of five of them and I hadn't put any effort at all into researching the can.

Marc

[mtracy64]

Matt,

I just reviewed your modified list for the first time in quite a while; it's much shorter than I expected. Would you define the criteria again? It appears that some unique rolled cans and cans thought to be test cans were removed, such as the gold Lion and red/green Lucky Ale, while others of these types remain. The yellow Cardinal, for example, is a flat sheet that has been wrapped around another can. And a few of the Crowntainers that remain on the list are thought to be test cans, while the similarly suspect Ortlieb's Ale, Piel's and Schlitz Bock are absent. Also - wasn't some info posted in another thread that indicated that the pink Kato and purple Schlitz FBIR cones were created only to be photographed for advertising purposes? Was the blue Hudepohl J-Spout removed as being a variation?

Below are some other cans that I'm aware of only a single example of:

Associated OI (paper label)
Hornung's Pilsener OI
Old Tamkard Ale OI (white can)
Krueger OD
Silver Fox Deluxe OD
Burger Brau OD HP cone
Breidt's Ale HP cone
National Bohemian Bock LP cone
Chester quart cone

Thanks,

Marc

[menke]

Marc, I made the assumption that because the guy knew you and still claimed only three in existence, that that number had come from you. Guess that'll teach me about assumptions. I'd also spoken to Romine about it just a week before, and he knew only of three as he tried to piece together each can's provenance. I told him of two others not on his list, so my point is valid that we all have varying amounts of correct information in our heads and the popularly spoken about "known numbers" doesn't reflect the single most informed collector's knowledge. You might've been the only one to know of five cans, and I didn't know what you knew. And then there are the unknown unknowns.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your expertise on this topic. Many cans got bumped on or off based on emails and pm's that flew around rather than getting posted in the thread. Chester quarts there at least two here in the mid-Atlantic aside from the clean one in the book (me & moquarts). Ortlieb's Ale at least two known, the one in MD AND the one sold on ebay a couple years back. The only true mock-up crowntainer I know of is the Piel's, which has a blank back and no mandatory if I remember right. The Bud crowntainer I guess is widely believed to be a mock-up for A-B to examine. Many other unique or super-rare crowns from the big crowntainer find have turned up in the years since, that's a straight quote from the crowntainer guy. It's a toss-up if the other still-unique labels were real cans, absent any other evidence. There was no Bud in there, or scores of other mock-ups, so it means nothing that no others have turned up of particular labels. Like the Wacker, these things take a long time to surface. Schlitz I'd guess is a mock-up only because they were already in so deep with Continental and not likely to have dabbled with Crown. Duquesne, and basically any PA brand, I would guess is legit just because there are so many rare PA crowns in the heart of Crown's territory. Am I missing some evidence on the others, or been inconsistent in my reasoning? I would defer to your experience and admit I haven't vetted and double checked every bit of info people have posted or sent me.

Didn't the green Brown Derbies recently dumped have traces of the Associated paper labels on them? That, and the paper label R turned up, to me, bump that can off the list. I wanted to stay away from background color things like many crowntainers have only because they'd repainted so many misprints rather than toss the can. I'd put the pabst in that same category, something that got the wrong primer coat most likely anyway. I didn't recall your story on the Cardinal, will pull that one off.

Anybody have input on the others Marc suggested?

Standards: Unique labels that DON'T count: Lilek numbers for cans with different Canco codes for different years, can company, OI panel, keglined panel, and patent differences, alcohol and tax statement differences, gray vs. silver, enamel vs. metallic, varying crowntainer background colors, cans with legit reason to think they're mock-ups or rolled cans. We're talking major, easily seen, and widely collected differences only.

Of course a lot of great cans get left off, but if you count all those smaller details you'd have a thousand cans that many of us have on shelves and don't even know it, as well as so deep a level of detail it'd be no fun to read. There has to be a cutoff somewhere, so this shorter list gets right to the point.

[Leon]

I've know of at least 2 different Burger Brau OD cones. Not a Unique one known. White & Gold Cardinal is a rolled short sheet. LEON.

[mtracy64]

Matt, I agree wholeheartedly that it's very difficult to track the number of known cans in most cases, and it's impossible to prove that can is unique. I assumed there were more Esslinger's Bock quarts out there than now appears to be the case; I certainly didn't expect to know of more of them than the Bock/Quart specialists knew of. I guess I've just been in the right place to see a couple of them that have hidden themselves well over the years...I wasn't even aware of Dave's recent find until Romine and I discussed the can; at that point Rich's had already been on ebay for a couple days and neither Jim or I was aware of that yet - I found out from Neil Kanetzke after speaking to Jim. Rich apparently had tried to contact me before listing the can, but ended up going with what he knew...one in the book, one he and I saw at Canvention in Arkansas in 1997 and his own.

Some other thoughts:

- I stand corrected on the Burger Brau OD and the Chester quart

- On the Ortlieb's Ale Crowntainer - is it possible you're thinking of the Gretz Ale? One of those turned up in CO and landed on ebay a few years ago and the can was thought to be unique prior to that

- I'm suspicious about all of the unique Crowntainers from Bill's find; I'd want to either include all of them on the list or leave them all off. The Crowntainer was received (surprisingly) well by the public, so it would make sense for brewers to consider adding it to their package lineup

- I'm also suspicious about the Bud and Schlitz Crowntainers. The painted Schlitz seems more believeable than the paper label cans. I guess I'd want to treat the Bud and the painted Schlitz like the unique cans from Bill's find but would want to leave the paper labels off the list even if the painted cans are included.

- I recall the Piel's being as you described and agree that it couldn't possibly have been marketed in that form

- I wasn't aware that R ("Big R" I assume?) had turned up an Associated paper label. I also see your point on Herman's Green Derby find with paper still on the cans

- Leon also saw the Cardinal at Frankenmuth the year I saw it, though we seem to have differing memories of it. To detour momentarily, I wonder if Leon recalls seeing an Esslinger's Bock quart cone at Frankenmuth mabye 5-7 years ago?

- I've got an email somewhere on the origin of the pink Kato and purple Schlitz FBIR cones, from someone who is familiar with the details of that find. I'll see if I can dig that up for you

- I sort of lean towards the Lucky Ale being a real can that was produced for a very short time before the war, but that's more of a hunch than anything else. It didn't appear to be a rolled can, but the gold Lion definitely is rolled

- I don't know what the story is on the white Old Tankard Ale other than the fact that there is an identical can in silver

- The Hornung's Pilsener I also don't know much about, other than that it was widely considered unique years ago

- The Silver Fox Deluxe OD appears to be every bit as real as the Meister Brau OD that it sits next to, but I don't know the story on these cans

- I don't know much about the Krueger OD other than that it's long been considered unique

- The Breidt's Ale HP cone was found in the cleaning out of a home and narrowly avoided being discarded. I've not heard of other examples turning up

- I see your point in leaving the National Bohemian Bock LP cone off as a variation on the HP can, and I'd probably agree if it wasn't for the fact that we're talking about a LP Bock cone

- The one known Trent Cream Ale quart cone was rubbed-out from under a dumper Wagner's Brake Fluid can

- I see you've added the blue Hudepohl J to the list; I agree with that.

Marc

[Leon]

Marc, I agree with you on that Cardinal, Arn't we both saying the same thing, rolled short sheet. I remember it quite well & seen again at Dearborn Canvention & wanted to buy after price dropped but still to steep. Even though rolled short sheet not sure anybody knows if a test can or not. We can assume so with no dumpers but who really knows. Maybe, maybe not? If it belongs on list or not I guess a judgement call by Menke? I'm 50/50 or either way. LEON.

P.S. I may of seen the Esslingers Bock quart before but don't remember it.

[Rockbob]

Is the Ortliebs Bock Ale cone a one of a kind?? I didnt see it listed or mentioned in this thread.

[mtracy64]

Bob,

The stories that are around on the Ortlieb's Bock Ale confict badly and the cans are in poor condition (or worse), but at least three are known. Jim Romine asked me and another collector to bring ours to Blue/Grey last year so he could photograph them together for an article he was writing for the Merry Bocksters newsletter. Mine is the reconstructed and half re-painted one, clearly the worst of the three.

[menke]

Excuse me, but my brain is full... thanks Marc for spurring me to refine the standards and do some more work on this list. It seems to work best when someone makes a claim forcing someone who knows better to refute it, rather than waiting for the second someone to volunteer the info.

I think i have all Bill's supposedly unique crowns in the list, meant to anyway. Pretty sure on the Ortlieb's Ale, but have been lax in printing out auction pages to keep my memory fresh. That's what made me think of the standard in which where a can comes from has some serious weight. A unique rolled sheet I take to be something that didn't make it far enough in the production process as to even be a protoype mockup. Still possibly a real can, but circumstantial evidence is against it and that's all the evidence there is. Cans like Wagner's quarts (I recently got an Ebling's Beer like Ctay's so that's not on the list) were legit enough for the sheets to hang around at Crown for some years. If they'd been one-offs for making mockup cans, you'd expect the sheets to be used up or trashed rather than held onto as if they were waiting for the next order for cans that never came. In this case there's also only circumstantial evidence, except IN favor of the can being legit.

In a related note, there was a Gretz quart some years ago on ebay from a seller in WV claiming some family history with Little Switzerland. The can had been sent to them by Crown decades before as a sample package. That's circumstantial evidence against making mock-ups for teensy brands, in this case they just sent something off the rack. Of course Bud would've been more business than just about everybody else combined, and well worth the effort to really schmooze them with a real inked label. Occam's Razor applies, go with the simplest explanation until you know better.

Ditto with the Tichelar quarts like White Cap. Those were collected for a photographer's use, and the can company would not have had rights to use the White Cap label in their own advertising unless they had the brewer's permission, likely only to come if the brewer were actually promoting and selling that package. Again, circumstantial evidence but that's all there is. I've not heard of another Golden Age anywhere, and the cursive Erlanger's either but I've never visited any of the heavy PA collectors so I wait to hear from them.

I look forward to hearing about the deep purple Schlitz and pink Kato. I take it the pink Kato is otherwise identical to the gold 'Gold Label?' That alone would nix it, and the Schlitz as well but on on cans like that I'd need to hear from someone who'd seen the back panels and so on to indicate whether there's any evidence they were intended to be different.

And the supposed Miller OD looks to be a repaint so I'd need to see it side-by-side with the real thing to believe it enough to knock that can off the list. Although every rare repaint I've stripped has always had at least the ghost of the real thing underneath. Never yet found less than one kernel of truth to such cans.

So I'll add the cans you mention as unique, and Eric's pints there as well, and hopefully that'll motivate people to speak up one way or the other. Except the Hornung's- is that the same can Lilek claims 8 known?

[Rockbob]

And the supposed Miller OD looks to be a repaint so I'd need to see it side-by-side with the real thing to believe it enough to knock that can off the list. Although every rare repaint I've stripped has always had at least the ghost of the real thing underneath. Never yet found less than one kernel of truth to such cans.

I have fondled the Miller OD in question. Along with Dave Wheaton, we determined the can to be legit. The only touch up is on the face. The side panels have not been messed with, and are in fine shape. The can showed up at a Windy City show last year.

[mtracy64]

Matt,

Happy to contribute whatever I can. It's basically impossible to prove that a can is unique; all we can really say is that nobody's confirmed multiples publicly yet. So, I agree that all you can really do is put together an initial list and wait to see what people can knock off of that list. I also agree that Occam's Razor should be applied whenever direct evidence is lacking.

One comment of yours that I found particularly interesting was the one about the Gretz quart cone on ebay years ago. I missed that auction, but I do have a copy of a shipping invoice dated 7-27-39 from "Crown Cork & Seal Bev. Can Div." (aka Crown Can Co.) which indicates that three sample quart cans were shipped to the Wm. Gretz Brewing Co. (C/O Wm. Gretz III), free of charge. The invoice is somewhat unusual in that it does not include the Crown Can Co. "code" for the quart can, whereas other invoices from the same time period always include that code - for example, "SCT-26" is the Gretz Bock Beer J-Spout, "MB-64" is the Gretz Bock Beer Crowntainer, etc.

I agree that a can (such as the Trent Cream Ale quart) appearing under a Wagner's constitutes proof of at least the intent to manufacture and that a single flat sheet falls somewhat short of that.

I agree that a repaint such as the Miller OD needs to be scrutinized, though my experience mirrors yours in that I have yet to strip a repaint and not find some remnant of the can underneath...but that Brandt LP cone is out there and the same guy supposedly also fabricated a Graham's Ale and Vita-Brew for his shelf. Rockbobford's comments would be more than sufficient to remove the Miller in my opinion.

I still feel that the Silver Fox Deluxe OD should be on the list unless somebody can debunk it. It's interesting too that none of the other Silver Fox cans are "Deluxe" as this one is. I don't know the history of this one, as Bock cans were the primary topic of discussion on my one visit to that collection. Jim Romine has occasional chats with this collector; perhaps he could be enticed to enquire on the history of the Silver Fox Deluxe and Meister Brau OD's.

You're treating the National Bohemian Bock LP cone as a variation on the HP cone?

Given the number of inaccuracies included in the "Cans of Anheuser Busch" pamphlet, I wouldn't believe a word their "historian" had to say.

The Hornung's Pilsener I mentioned is the can that Kevin Lilek claims eight of. Odd, eight seems like a large enough number for some movement to be seen over the years; the only one I know of is in Appleton.

On the Ortlieb's Ale Crowntainer - I'm sure I would have known about it if one had turned up on ebay, as a good friend of mine specializes in Crowntainers and in fact did win the Gretz Ale when it turned up a few years back. He also owns the painted and paper label Schlitz Crowntainers and is a former owner of the pink Kato and the purple Schlitz FBIR's. I searched through my old emails and couldn't find the discussion of those two cans that I was thinking of...searching this site indicated that Herman had posted the discussion I was thinking of in the thread at the link below. The thread also includes photos Chris Taylor took on one of our visits to this collection.

Marc

http://www.therustybunch.com/phpBB3/vie ... ers#p44392

[PinBeer]

And the supposed Miller OD looks to be a repaint so I'd need to see it side-by-side with the real thing to believe it enough to knock that can off the list. Although every rare repaint I've stripped has always had at least the ghost of the real thing underneath. Never yet found less than one kernel of truth to such cans.

I have fondled the Miller OD in question. Along with Dave Wheaton, we determined the can to be legit. The only touch up is on the face. The side panels have not been messed with, and are in fine shape. The can showed up at a Windy City show last year.

FWIW, I also was able to inspect the other Miller OD in person at last year's Guzzle n Twirl. I would call it more 'touched up' than a repaint. Didn't have a black light or anything with me, but it passed muster to me.

Cheers.

[menke]

Ok, so the guys who looked at the Miller know the back of the real thing well enough to see this dumper wasn't just a different brand with a front painted to look like the Miller?

Also, duh, I assumed you meant 'Silver Fox Deluxe' was a Fox Deluxe WF that was silver instead of OD. Forgot about the Silver Fox can, so I switched those out.

Yeah, on the Natty Boh cones I believe the label is the same and the list is all about the labels, so no dice. Even if the lopro had the older NY distributor it wouldn't be a face difference. I may be consigned a decent dumper hipro for the show.

On the crowns I'm kind of stubborn. There was a thread on this site right around the time of the auction I remember, maybe somebody bookmarked or printed it out? I don't think I would have forgotten the brand in the auction that quickly, but if the thread was about Gretz Ale I'd certainly admit to being an idiot.

If someone PM's a motive Lilek might've had to downplay the rarity of the Hornung's Pilsener, I'll include it. Some of the cans he faked seem like they were done to thumb his nose at guys who wouldn't allow access to their particular cans, in addition to the peeved statements about not being allowed access when he had only an offgrade example instead. In essence he'd say, 'oh I don't need YOUR can anymore because I already found one.' So I wouldn't be surprised to discover some number massaging as well.

[PinBeer]

Ok, so the guys who looked at the Miller know the back of the real thing well enough to see this dumper wasn't just a different brand with a front painted to look like the Miller?

I can only speak for myself, but yes. It looked like a touch up, not a 'repaint' or 'painted' - certainly not a completely different can done over.

[mtracy64]

Matt,

I can't find anything on the Ortlieb's Ale or Gretz Ale. I do recall that the Gretz Ale sold right around $7300, if that rings a bell with you at all.

As for the Hornung's, let's just assume that I'm wrong. If I can dig up anything on it either way, I'll get back to you.

Marc

[menke]

I'm remembering a sale in the 2,300 range, which surprised me then and again now when I tracked down the old thread. Somebody had asked it if was unique after it had gone off, and I said no, that the auction can wasn't the same one from the big crowntainer find because I'd just seen that one, still there on the shelf, right around that time. I went back to the old message board and found a thread about one-of-a-kinders in early March 2006. In that thread, both Marc and Bob Porter correct me that it was the Gretz and NOT an Ortlieb's. Sigh. I'll go add it to the list, along with a reminder to have some more gingko biloba. My mistaken memories seem to be more stubborn than the real ones. Thanks, Dan, for archiving all that. Seems like just yesterday.

I wonder if someday ebay won't try to sell a compendium of auctions like that, since they 'own' the listing you'd think they'd be keen on cashing in. I get sick of buying #78 ink cartridges or the cheap refills missing one color or another from printing out these pages. If I were slick I'd get a zip drive or something and just save them onto that as my own reference guide... I'm still in a mid-nineties mindset about my desktop memory space.

Marc, how much tracking of Crown quarts do you do? I'll be curious to pick your brain about their strategies as WWII approached, why so many cans that come multi-company appear to have a single crown can right before the war. (Ballantine being the only Continental/American customer)

[mtracy64]

I do recall that the Trent Cream Ale sold in the neighborhood of $2500, but I am positive about the $7300 on the Gretz Ale - it was the highest price I'd seen for a Crowntainer outside of the Bud sale many years ago. Plus it was a friend of mine who bought it...it resides with Schlitz Crowntainers. Very cool can, and I'd love to see that color scheme on a J-Spout

I know what you mean about stubborn mistaken memories and the cost of ink cartridges. It's actually cheaper to buy a new printer than to replace ink cartridges in many cases.

I haven't really done any tracking of quarts, Crown or otherwise. The only thing that comes to mind as far as the phenomenon you mentioned is that perhaps the other companies had reached their capacity as to how many quarts they could produce and that Crown perhaps picked up some overflow work.

Marc

[eddieguitarloebs]

Thanks for the photo of the Schlitz Bock, i've never seen one....Outstanding can!!