Whats the highest "safe" relative humidity for can

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What is the highest "safe" relative humidity for your collection rooms?

35-40
5
38%
40-45
1
8%
45-50
3
23%
50-55
4
31%
55-60
0
No votes
60-65
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 13

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Whats the highest "safe" relative humidity for can

#1

Post by ozarkridgerunner »

Many of us live in humid areas of the country. Despite running AC and dehumidifiers, sometimes the humidity can be somewhat high in the house, especially in basements where collections are often displayed. While we all love rust, we don't want any cans in our house to suffer further effects of humidity. I did a quick google search on ideal temperature for beer can collections and came up with nothing. This link http://library.boisestate.edu/Special/thrive.htm says "68 degrees, 45 percent relative humidity — the best atmosphere for keeping paper". What about cans? Obviously, dry is good, but what is the "high end" of safe relative humidity for beer cans?


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#2

Post by Mike S »

Ive asked this before and never got a straight answer, not sure any if us really know? I Have a room in my basement and keep my de-humidifier on high this time of year. The room stays between the 35-40% range but being the room is small and the machine running all the time the temp is usually 75-80..............................no problems so far.
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#3

Post by Bryan2 »

My girlfriend is super sensitive regarding allergies. Humidity below 40% makes her skin dry and over 60%, she worries about mold and mildew growth. Hence, the 40-60% rule is in effect in our basement. I try to maintain 50% where I keep my copper/gold mettalic cans.
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#4

Post by Vince »

I think it depends on more than just the humidity. Like temperature and barametric pressure as well. What I'm saying is that dew points vary with temperature, pressure as well as humidity. For example, what may be a good himidity at sea level at 70 degrees F may no be the same as 5000 feet above sea level.

I suspect that it has more to do with a factor of three things. not one. The question should be, at what point does condensation start happening where you live?

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#5

Post by cansnatcher »

Good question and thread. I'll ask it a different way. What would be your indicator that your humidity is too high? A metallic can? Would the back of the can get it worse? Would a can lower on the rack get it worse (isn't is more humid near the floor?) Would glass doors help or hurt (by slowing down air flow that might tend to reduce condensation?).

Should we have a sacrificial can of some sort that begins to get spotty before our prized cans so we know we need to change something?
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#6

Post by Rand »

cansnatcher wrote:Would a can lower on the rack get it worse (isn't is more humid near the floor?)
Humid air is *LESS* dense than dry air. The molecular mass of water vapor is less than the molecular mass of the average components of "air". So, given that at any temperature and pressure and volume, the number of molecules present are fixed for said volume of gas.....if you replace some percentage of that volume with a less dense gas like water vapor....the resulting gas will be less dense.

Dry air is heavier than wet air.

Let me know if we need to discuss the diatomic nature of oxygen and nitrogen and to do a quick calculation of molecular mass.

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#7

Post by cansnatcher »

Rand-- way to shut down the thread. I'll keep it going. So, you're saying that humid air rises. Well, that would certainly make sense as I watch rain rushing from the ground up to the clouds. ;)

But beyond that, basements are more humid that upper floors. Can we all agree on that? The question then is whether the air at the floor is more or less humid than the ceiling. Since temperature probably DOES vary, I'm not sure theory works here. We might need actual data to be sure.

Looks like another ebay purchase ahead for me-- this time two humidity meters.
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#8

Post by Rand »

cansnatcher wrote:Rand-- way to shut down the thread. I'll keep it going. So, you're saying that humid air rises. Well, that would certainly make sense as I watch rain rushing from the ground up to the clouds. ;)
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not....but that's exactly what happens. Clouds are nothing but water vapor.....and there is a reason why you see them high in the sky (normally).....because humid air is less dense than the dry air.
cansnatcher wrote:But beyond that, basements are more humid that upper floors. Can we all agree on that?
Yes....but not because humid air is sinking. Basements are more humid because you don't seal them well and stick them in humid ground.

cansnatcher wrote:The question then is whether the air at the floor is more or less humid than the ceiling. Since temperature probably DOES vary, I'm not sure theory works here. We might need actual data to be sure.

Looks like another ebay purchase ahead for me-- this time two humidity meters.
Well....given the centuries of developed theory on the laws of physics....I'm pretty sure the theory works....even here. Nevertheless, I agree that you will want to move to the empirical, if not to validate theory...then to quantify your specific home environment. The other way to go is....just save your money on the meters.....and buy a de-humidifier and be done with it.

Rand :smile:
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#9

Post by Mike S »

Rand is right. Water moves from the ground to the air and comes back as rain...
As far as basements the most humid spot in my entire house is right inside my basement door at the top of the steps. Its so bad right there i can feel it as soon as i open the door and it starts to get better as i walk down the stairs......
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#10

Post by blake »

I know that in my collection that was neglected left in the basement for years. The cans on the lower shelfs appeared to get more deterioration than the higher shelfs.
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#11

Post by cansnatcher »

Blake. I'm sorry, but somebody must have played a practical joke on you. That is physically impossible as per the discussion above. You see, moisture rises. Maybe it was an optical illusion, because there's no reason to even consider the possibility of this happening naturally.

I'm being sarcastic. That's intuitively probable. But I think we need some experiments to determine the magnitude of the difference. I assume by neglect you mean that you were in a basement without a dehumidifier?
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#12

Post by blake »

Snatcher...neglect is without dehumidifier and without human intervention. I wish that I would have taken a more scientific look at the results, but my parents were moving so it had to happen quickly.
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#13

Post by Rand »

cansnatcher wrote:That is physically impossible as per the discussion above. You see, moisture rises.
I realize you are being sarcastic.....but it gives me an opportunity to make the following points.

I want to be crystal clear about the following.....nowhere....in any of my posts....did I make any kind of recommendation as to where a beer can should be positioned to avoid any kind of damage.

What I did say....and what I will continue to defend.....is that moist air is less dense than dry air. I make no claim as to the effect of this fact on a wall full of iron based collectibles.

I think this thread is following a very valid and potentially important thought....for all of us.....I simply wanted to insert one fact that is not necessarily intuitive to keep the conversation based in reality.

Rand :smile:
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#14

Post by kb »

my $200 humidifier i bought at the Depot 4-5 yrs ago burned out last summer. I would see water dropplets on the north wall all summer long til I bought the thing. That was also when I bought expensive cans. dont need it any longer for my properly AGED cans.
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#15

Post by cansnatcher »

Rand-- I hope you know I'm just having fun with what I'm sure is scientifically correct. But intuitively questionable. I'm pretty sure a basement storage area has some variables that offset your facts. But I'm going to try to collect some data. I've bought two humidity meters (because I'll have two display areas very soon!) and will simply put one high and one low for a while to see if there's a difference.

What other tests should we try?
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#16

Post by stringsx24now »

What other tests?

If you have a bathroom downstairs, is it more humid closer to the bathroom? Put one meter closer to the bathroom, and the other farthest away. Will it read any different?
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#17

Post by ozarkridgerunner »

Thanks for all of the great feedback on this thread. I recently purchased 2 digital humidity stations (enviracaire brand) for an experiment that proved what I suspected. Despite having the dehumidifier on 24x7 in the basement, the RH was consistently about 3% higher in the basement than on the first floor where my Breweriana is now displayed. Still, RH never has exceeded 48% in the basement on the most humid days, so from my perspective that means it (basement) is good to go for can and breweriana displays. Heck my kids at play are more of a threat to my collection than Mr. Humidity.

Note before starting any humidity experiment, make sure both stations show the same reading under identical conditions (e.g. side by side) before separating. This will show that each will deliver metrics that can be used to compare apples to apples.
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#18

Post by cansnatcher »

I bought two also and plan to try a number of experiments to know some of the do's and don'ts. If you have ideas, throw them out here.
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#19

Post by Wheaton »

I can't help myself here. I've been a central midwesterner for most of my life, and I'm pretty sure a full can of Campell's Soup is drier on the inside than Michigan/Indiana/Ohio air in the summer. Cans from my childhood collection that I pulled from storage have deteriorated noticably from when they were brand-new and straight out of the cooler. I think I jumped up and down as a kid in some carry-out with my dad because they had two different steel 16oz Stroh's cans in there...the ultra-tall crimped steel job right alongside the typical SS tab. He rolled his eyes and bought both. These are now spotted up in the metallic gold despite the fact that they were wrapped and sealed in boxes for years. And while I can live with some zits on a Stroh's can that I keep just because I'm nostalgic, I cannot accept them growing on a Tru Blu Ale under any circumstances.

I'm just going to put in one more quick plug for penetrating oil, despite the subject's questionable public approval. I was skeptical of the treatment at first, but now that I've had the opportunity to see the results, I refuse to own an older metallic can that I have not personally oiled. Penetrating oil displaces the moisture that spots those metallics up and it prevents further oxidation. Very simple, very harmless. Most folks' contentions that oil causes shelf rings and sticky fingers and whatnot are perfectly valid, but it's more a question of magnitude. A pound of oil per can is excessive, obviously. It doesn't take much to be effective. A light misting, followed by a gentle wipedown, is perfectly sufficient. You could pull any of my metallic cans off the wall and never know by tactition alone that they'd even been oiled. I'd have to tell you they were. Oiled cans preserve well and humidity almost becomes a non-issue.

Now, to pre-empt the counterclaims...yes, oiling 3,000 cans takes a lot of time and lots of oil. Yes, some people find it stinky (I've worked my adult life in factories and don't even notice it anymore). Yes, if you oil too vigorously, you'll have puddles. So, many people want an alternative. Those can-sleeve thingies are pretty neat but some feel that they compromise a display. One can go with gasket-sealed glass shelves and change their dessicant salts regularly, if one has the scratch and the spare time to build such accomodations. Most of us can't or won't go to those extremes. Enter good ol' WD40...job done.

My compromise is that I don't personally feel a pressing need to use it on my enamel-painted cans, even though that application is just as valid. I oil metallic cans only. I have traded a good number of treated cans in the past, and nary a soul has ever held one of them and been repulsed. Do it right and you won't even know it's been done. Save some money on the dehumidifier power bill as a bonus.
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#20

Post by cansnatcher »

Good post, Wheaty. Its on my agenda, along with buying a Grace gallon.
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#21

Post by Bryan2 »

I'm not sold on WD-40, but I bet a good way to apply it would be to spray it on a microfiber towel and then wipe it on the can. I would consider this method on my most prized mettalics, although I do have some can tubes.

As far as my basement conditions, again, I think 40-60% humidity is a good range and a fan for some air circulation during rainy periods. Also, I don't put cans against block walls. My shelves are against drywall. This may be leading to a question of battling humidity or battling UV rays? What is the lesser of evils? My collection is split...some in my dark basement and some in my garage/rec room.
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