Morean Auction

[Cap-Sealed]

Undisclosed Reserves? ###! Imagine how you feel if you were high bidder, and then they tell you, sorry, there was a reserve not met. That's like the fox guarding the hen house!

[Chris E.]

Undisclosed Reserves? ###! Imagine how you feel if you were high bidder, and then they tell you, sorry, there was a reserve not met. That's like the fox guarding the hen house!

If I had known there was undisclosed reserves on the cans I bid on, I wouldn't have bothered. I am staying away from these auctions from now on. Better to buy at shows anyway.

Chris E.

[agkg25220]

This is why i am a proud and happy member of the RUSTY Bunch
Art

[OhioCanGuy]

Question:

The auction page has been updated with final selling prices plus the buyers premium added in. The following lots no longer exist: 12, 24, 35, 42, 46, 54,55,56, 57, 60, 78, 95,97, 99. I stopped counting at this point. By "no longer exist" I mean, there was a can listed for those lot numbers, bidding happened, but now the picture/description has been deleted. Of course, no final numbers either.

Should we infer that those were double secret probation Reserve cans that didn't meet the secret, never to be disclosed, nor discussed, mystery reserve?

[dwaugh]

Should we infer that those were double secret probation Reserve cans that didn't meet the secret, never to be disclosed, nor discussed, mystery reserve?

Rather than infer anything, why not just email Dan and ask him?

[OhioCanGuy]

Should we infer that those were double secret probation Reserve cans that didn't meet the secret, never to be disclosed, nor discussed, mystery reserve?

Rather than infer anything, why not just email Dan and ask him?

I did, on Monday the 9th. At this point, I have not received a response.

Not trying to create any bad blood here. The times I have spoken to Dan in the past, both in person and on the phone, he's been very pleasant and informative. I, for one, appreciate all he does for the hobby. The can I did win/buy in the auction has been shipped and he provided tracking. Glad to add the can to my collection and I'm happy it was made available. I just think that it's not too much to ask for some clarification on the terms of the auction. I think we can all agree, there is some muddy water here.

[ConeAddict]

I agree, I think Dan has done a ton for the hobby but I don't think it is out of bounds to bring this stuff up on this forum. I am sure he checks in here just like the BCP guys for feedback on his auctions. Having auctions with blind reserves is bound to raise suspicions, and the unusual high prices brought up here on some of the cans only adds fuel to that fire. I am guessing these reserves are on consignment cans so I am not at all suggesting Dan is doing anything suspicious himself, just saying the blind reserves opens things up to shilling concerns just like we have on ebay. I usually end up with a can from most of his auctions and will continue to follow them, but I think if a reserve is not met we should be aware of it when bidding.

[Leon]

Many people have said in here that they will not even bid on a can that has a reserve on ebay. SO, Why would you put it in the Auction,. so less people would bid & then even more less likely to meet reserve?

[ConeAddict]

Many people have said in here that they will not even bid on a can that has a reserve on ebay. SO, Why would you put it in the Auction,. so less people would bid & then even more less likely to meet reserve?

We also have guys who say they will never bid in his auctions again because of the blind reserve so that might be a reason to disclose it. People don't like it for the same reason they don't like it on ebay. I always thought it may be a legal issue but Ebay probably doesn't allow blind reserves because they want their customers to trust that their bids are legit.

[Leon]

And what are the reasons people don't like it on ebay? I don't know because they don't bother me & I bid on them on ebay. LEON.

[Leon]

" I always thought it may be a legal issue but Ebay probably doesn't allow blind reserves because they want their customers to trust that their bids are legit"



How can you trust a ebay auction is legit when they have auction that say Private Bidders & even the ones that don't say Private Bidder are now Private anyways because they block the names. I know of a bottle collector (not me) that always has his buddy bid his bottles up for him (shill bidding) I can tell because has the exact same super high feedback #. LEON.

[pinnacle-project]

If people want to have a reserve on an auction (ebay, Morean, Good Guys, or anyplace else), I would simply like to see the opening bid be the reserve price. That puts it out in the open. People can either bid or not bid. I typically do not bid on auctions with a reserve because I assume the reserve price is some high, unrealistic price placed by somebody with too high of expectations. My assumption could easily be incorrect but how can I know if the reserve is a secret?

[ConeAddict]

And what are the reasons people don't like it on ebay? I don't know because they don't bother me & I bid on them on ebay. LEON.

Because it is playing games, if you won't take less than $1000 then that's where you should start the bidding. I find it annoying. And to answer your other question I have never placed a bid on ebay and not known whether it would win if it was the highest bid at the end, if a reserve is not met there a red line or something that alerts me. That's all I meant by legit bids.

[Leon]

If you noticed nobody uses reserves on ebay anymore because ebay frowned the use of or discouraged reserve. so to eliminate it they made adding a reserve to a ebay auction so high & expensive that nobody will use it, as a result many people now do just make opening bid what there reserve would of been. these auctions kinda do have a set price on some of these cans or cans like them, on there websites. maybe some of there old stock they had for years end up on these auctions, I really don't know but guessing on that? Yes, many times ebay reserves are to high but sometimes not & if I don't meet reserve then forget the can & don't worry about. or if you get high bid but not meet reserve you can contact them after Auction & make offer & you still may get it for what you want. LEON.

[Plusonegolfer]

The Tudor 16oz can in the auction was mine - I own it. Dan asked me a few days before the auction if I had a reserve on any of my cans. I said I did, and the Tudor missed the reserve by only $50 and therefore did not sell. Not sure why the reserve was noted, I would have preferred that it was. Frankly, I was surprised it didn’t sell as the reserve was a bit low for a can that is very hard to find. Not sure why Dan doesn’t show the reserves, but I have bought plenty of high dollar cans from him, so I will inquire...

[OhioCanGuy]

The big collector car auction houses all seem to have settled into an accepted way to handle this. Think Barrett-Jackson, Gooding and Co., Russo & Steele, etc.

Basically, if a car has a reserve it's noted prior to the auction starting. The actual reserve number is not given, but everyone knows there is a reserve price. Once the item is live, if the bidding pushes the bid to and/or above the reserve, it is immediately announced that the reserve is off and the item will sell. If the item eventually does not meet the reserve, the item is tagged as not sold but the final high bid is noted. Usually they do not reveal what the reserve number was. However, many cars are sold later by an eager buyer contacting the auction house and either paying the reserve or negotiating a deal.

Secondly, if the auction house is bidding against the public, that is disclosed. I have seem multiple times at Barrett-Jackson one of the principals bidding against the public. Very clear what's going on and you know that they are bidding against you.

Of note, for many years all Battett-Jackson auctions were no reserve. A few years ago they have started allowing reserves on a select few cars. The vast majority of their cars still sell without any reserve.

[Leon]

There was a car that sold at Barrett-Jackson a few years ago, back when they had no Reserves & the car sold because no reserve. BUT, The seller did not like the high bid he got & refused to sell the car. when buyer went to collect or pick up car at Barrett-Jackson the seller had chained it to light pole or tree or something at Barrett-Jackson & refused to unchain it or release & things got real ugly, think the courts & legal action & lawsuits were involved. LEON.

[OhioCanGuy]

There was a car that sold at Barrett-Jackson a few years ago, back when they had no Reserves & the car sold because no reserve. BUT, The seller did not like the high bid he got & refused to sell the car. when buyer went to collect or pick up car at Barrett-Jackson the seller had chained it to light pole or tree or something at Barrett-Jackson & refused to unchain it or release & things got real ugly, think the courts & legal action & lawsuits were involved. LEON.

I remember that. Believe it or not, that was 12 years ago. 2007. Car was a 1970 Hemi Cuda with competition drag race history. Painted and stickered up as you would expect a drag car to be. Seller thought they rushed the auction and he didn't get enough time of open bidding. Hammer price was still like $300k if I remember correctly. However, seller didn't think it was enough.

Everything was settled a year later in January of 2008. Not sure how the settlement worked, but the seller published an explicit statement basically saying that BJ did nothing wrong and everything was legit. Probably paid to say that, but who knows. Also, looking back, the economy and stock market was peaking in 2007. Things got real ugly in 2008 and early 2009. Prices of collector cars (and real estate) dropped like someone taking a selfie on the edge of the Grand Canyon (did I just say that? Terrible). Anyway, a year later he may have reflected that the price he got was actually very good and settled quickly.

Crazy stuff!

[Leon]

I Got my own Speculation of what I think happened. What happened was this. the year before a similar car with similar drag racing history sold for 1.2 million. SO, After seeing this, this guy figured hey, if he can get 1.2 million for his, I should sell mine there next year & get 1.2 million for mine, but he didn't & he's to stupid to know why. And if he did later say he made a mistake it's only because they/someone educated him on why his expectations were to high & it had nothing to do with the Economy. The guy just didn't know anything about cars, just thought he'd get rich being a flipper but it didn't work out that way because of his incomitance & lack of knowledge on cars. LEON.

[Rand]

https://www.eastvalleytribune.com/news/ ... 2cecc.html

[Leon]

The guy lost the law suite because he was wrong, he thought his $300,000 car was worth 3 times more then that. He even said so in the artice. But it was not & everybody knew it was not but him. Notice nobody or even the seller would say why he was wrong. LEON.

[Rand]

The guy lost the law suite because he was wrong, he thought his $300,000 car was worth 3 times more then that. He even said so in the artice. But it was not & everybody knew it was not but him. Notice nobody or even the seller would say why he was wrong. LEON.

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/1970 ... da-236857/

[chicagocans]

Link to internet article, “Should the reserve be disclosed?”

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress ... /#comments

Here are some pertinent parts:

Should potential bidders be informed of the reserve price? There seems to be two schools of thought on this topic amongst auctioneers.

No, don’t disclose the reserve
Disclosing the reserve will encourage bidders to think the item is only worth the reserve value and place a barrier (of sorts) in their minds that this is the market value. By not disclosing the reserve price, bidders are free to think the item is worth much more (and free to think there isn’t any reserve at all, or that the reserve is insignificant) and this will result in a higher final bid price.

Yes, disclose the reserve
Disclosing the reserve suggests to potential bidders that nothing is hidden or secretive about this auction — the message is “We’re telling you all we know.” Too, if the reserve price appears to be reasonable, disclosing that number will likely cause more interest as the bidders know the item will sell. This will result in a higher final bid price.

Both schools of thought result in the auctioneer thinking their method will result in a higher final bid price. What’s the right answer? Is there a right answer?

It seems clear nowadays that auction bidders and buyers are more inclined to participate in auctions with increased disclosure and transparency. I would suggest that if an item has an undisclosed reserve, potential bidders will think the reserve is probably high or unreasonable. Further, if an item has a reasonable reserve, why not disclose it? Potential bidders have a broad range of resources available to them to find out what the item is worth, outside of the stated reserve. If other sources suggest an item is worth $40,000, does anyone really think a $25,000 reserve will serve as a barrier to them bidding?

Could it be this simple? If the reserve is good news (reasonable or low,) disclose it. If the reserve is bad news (too high,) then don’t? I would suggest that this may indeed be the moral to our story here. Yet, if this became the usual pattern -- which then the public is able to perceive -- then anytime a reserve isn’t disclosed it would send a signal that it must be bad news . . .

[Plusonegolfer]

Many of the cans in these various auctions are consigned to the auction-house to be sold. It seems simple enough to let the owner of the can decide to show or not show the reserve. If given an option, I would show the reserve because I always use a number that is a bit below its value. If there's no buyer willing to meet that reserve value on a given day, it doesn't mean you couldn't try again. Nothing sells for the exact same amount in different auctions... My two cents today.

[beercanman]

FYI I just pulled this off of Dan's auction site (https://www.moreanauctions.com/rules.aspx)

"Auction with Reserve

In the case of a reserved item, the seller has authorized the Auctioneer to bid on his/her behalf until the reserve price is reached. Any item may be withdrawn at any time prior to the call of “sold,” regardless of any minimum."

Dan is a very intelligent and reasonable businessman. I'm sure he would be happy to consider legitimate suggestions for improving his auction procedures.

[chicagocans]

Does this apply when the auctioneer himself is the owner/seller of the item? That means the auctioneer is bidding against bidders to raise the price up to the reserve price for a non-consigned/auctioneer-owned item. If we adapt the rules language accordingly, it would read: "The Auctioneer has authorized himself to bid on his own behalf until the reserve price is reached." Seems more than a bit troubling, especially when we're talking about UNDISCLOSED reserves that only the auctioneer knows of . . .

[Cap-Sealed]

Does this apply when the auctioneer himself is the owner/seller of the item? That means the auctioneer is bidding against bidders to raise the price up to the reserve price for a non-consigned/auctioneer-owned item. If we adapt the rules language accordingly, it would read: "The Auctioneer has authorized himself to bid on his own behalf until the reserve price is reached." Seems more than a bit troubling, especially when we're talking about UNDISCLOSED reserves that only the auctioneer knows of . . .

If the auctioneer is going to bid up the item to hit the reserve, then why not start the item at the reserve price? This seems a lot like today's NFL: you are playing against the other team and the officials. Not fun anymore.

[conesplus]

Wow,
Ed, that is the perfectly example!
Good job.

[ConeAddict]

FYI I just pulled this off of Dan's auction site (https://www.moreanauctions.com/rules.aspx)

"Auction with Reserve

In the case of a reserved item, the seller has authorized the Auctioneer to bid on his/her behalf until the reserve price is reached. Any item may be withdrawn at any time prior to the call of “sold,” regardless of any minimum."

Dan is a very intelligent and reasonable businessman. I'm sure he would be happy to consider legitimate suggestions for improving his auction procedures.

Just saw he posted a new auction with a few cans I would love as usual. But this reserve policy is still there in the terms, I am out until that changes.

[Plusonegolfer]

There’s a Graupner’s quart on his current auction that says it was rubbed out. I didn’t know you could rub out a can and have it come out that perfectly. Is that normal - I’d like to learn more about that...