Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#61

Post by Leon »

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#62

Post by Clarkston1 »

Leon wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Clarkston1 wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:13 pm I’ll throw in what I consider my toughest 5 Michigan cans.

- The 4 panel Old Gold is probably the only true rare can.
- The Patrick Henry and Phoenix are not necessary rare cans but tough and a little heavy on the wallet (at least for me) in high grade condition.
- Goebel Bock from Detroit. IMO Is EXTREMELY difficult to get in high grade condition. In the past 15 years of getting back into collecting somewhat seriously I never saw another example available.
- Honers J-Spout - The book can is by far the best condition out there but this one may be second best known. I would love to be proven wrong on this but no one has posted clear all around pictures yet to verify one way or another.

My Honers j-spout on left is pretty nice. LEON.
Front looks 👍 Can you post pictures of the sides to give a overall view of condition. Here is mine, heavy fade on one side but displayable dumper until a better one is available.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#63

Post by mtracy64 »

Clarkston1 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:08 am
Leon wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Clarkston1 wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:13 pm I’ll throw in what I consider my toughest 5 Michigan cans.

- The 4 panel Old Gold is probably the only true rare can.
- The Patrick Henry and Phoenix are not necessary rare cans but tough and a little heavy on the wallet (at least for me) in high grade condition.
- Goebel Bock from Detroit. IMO Is EXTREMELY difficult to get in high grade condition. In the past 15 years of getting back into collecting somewhat seriously I never saw another example available.
- Honers J-Spout - The book can is by far the best condition out there but this one may be second best known. I would love to be proven wrong on this but no one has posted clear all around pictures yet to verify one way or another.

My Honers j-spout on left is pretty nice. LEON.
Front looks 👍 Can you post pictures of the sides to give a overall view of condition. Here is mine, heavy fade on one side but displayable dumper until a better one is available.
I've seen a couple with slightly better faces, but with major problems on the back. I'd like to see Conehead's can again.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#64

Post by ConeAddict »

Leon wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:03 pmPIC.
I don't how much we can read into the ads though. They are not photographs and while the cans design was already in place by the Feb 36 continental ad I think it is similar to the bottle labels and it's possible the can only existed on paper at the time of that ad. Also, people at the time didn't think about the can change like us collectors do, the artist who drew up the newspaper ad could have just drawn it up like the fbir ads just because that is what most cones had looked like for the past several months. I doubt anyone at the time cared about it's accuracy. It's such a small window of a few months, maybe Goetz just wanted to wait until summer to debut their cans and ended up being one of the first with CB/RR. By September their were 53 cones and all were using CB/RR.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#65

Post by Conehead »

mtracy64 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:53 am I'd like to see Conehead's can again.

Marc
Here you go Marc. Mine has the big problem on the right side, but the display is pretty nice.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#66

Post by Leon »

:smt007 Here's the sides. LEON. :smt007
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#67

Post by mtracy64 »

ConeAddict wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:19 am
Leon wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:03 pmPIC.
I don't how much we can read into the ads though. They are not photographs and while the cans design was already in place by the Feb 36 continental ad I think it is similar to the bottle labels and it's possible the can only existed on paper at the time of that ad. Also, people at the time didn't think about the can change like us collectors do, the artist who drew up the newspaper ad could have just drawn it up like the fbir ads just because that is what most cones had looked like for the past several months. I doubt anyone at the time cared about it's accuracy. It's such a small window of a few months, maybe Goetz just wanted to wait until summer to debut their cans and ended up being one of the first with CB/RR. By September their were 53 cones and all were using CB/RR.
The ad Leon posted uses a drawing of the can, but the group ad you cited appears to be a photograph. I suppose studio trickery could have been involved, even if it seems odd that only one of the cans in Continental's ads hasn't been confirmed. Any number of things could have caused a delay in the introduction of the can, and proving that the FBIR never existed would be next to impossible even if it is the most reasonable hypothesis.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#68

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Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:34 am :smt007 Here's the sides. LEON. :smt007
Yeah, the sides of my can . . .

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#69

Post by mtracy64 »

Conehead wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:23 am
mtracy64 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:53 am I'd like to see Conehead's can again.

Marc
Here you go Marc. Mine has the big problem on the right side, but the display is pretty nice.

Jim
Thanks, Jim. Jon has brought this up before, but it's been a long time and I wasn't aware of this second indoor can then. I had a pretty good memory of the face only. The can I have has long been considered the best one known by the Michigan guys, but there are several (or more) that display better than it. It took me four days to decide to buy it when Alex brought it to Blue/Grey several years ago.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#70

Post by Clarkston1 »

Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:34 am :smt007 Here's the sides. LEON. :smt007
Ok, the sides of the book can, but not your example.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#71

Post by Leon »

mtracy64 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:51 am
Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:34 am :smt007 Here's the sides. LEON. :smt007
Yeah, the sides of my can . . .

Marc


Yeah, I was being Sarcastic with that post but didn't want to make it to obvious yet with my sarcastic meter pic I usually Ad. I wanted to Buy Alex's indoor can when he was selling but was on Skid Row. I was with Alex when we both went to Keith Niels house to buy that can & many others. Looking in my Computer Folder I don't see a pic of my back or sides. I got it Boxed up in my Attic because of the Basement constantly flooding & the Humidity down there. I could try to find it & take some pics. I know the back is Rusty. LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#72

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mtracy64 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:46 am

The ad Leon posted uses a drawing of the can, but the group ad you cited appears to be a photograph. I suppose studio trickery could have been involved, even if it seems odd that only one of the cans in Continental's ads hasn't been confirmed. Any number of things could have caused a delay in the introduction of the can, and proving that the FBIR never existed would be next to impossible even if it is the most reasonable hypothesis.

Marc
Looking closer at that ad I see what you mean as the cone portion looks like a photo, but it doesn't look like a photo of a bright red can, especially when you compare it to the photos of the 4 cans in their March ad. The metallic bottom portion should not look like that in a photo. But I guess if it's a photo we can say for sure it existed and if it is a touched up photo of another can we can probably say it didn't.

I don't mean to beat it to death it's just an interesting topic from my corner of the hobby. You are right we are not going to prove anything in this thread. But who knows, maybe someone sees this and says "hey I got a dumper but never thought it was rare since it is only a $400 can in the book". :smile:
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#73

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ConeAddict wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:37 am
mtracy64 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:46 am

The ad Leon posted uses a drawing of the can, but the group ad you cited appears to be a photograph. I suppose studio trickery could have been involved, even if it seems odd that only one of the cans in Continental's ads hasn't been confirmed. Any number of things could have caused a delay in the introduction of the can, and proving that the FBIR never existed would be next to impossible even if it is the most reasonable hypothesis.

Marc
Looking closer at that ad I see what you mean as the cone portion looks like a photo, but it doesn't look like a photo of a bright red can, especially when you compare it to the photos of the 4 cans in their March ad. The metallic bottom portion should not look like that in a photo. But I guess if it's a photo we can say for sure it existed and if it is a touched up photo of another can we can probably say it didn't.

I don't mean to beat it to death it's just an interesting topic from my corner of the hobby. You are right we are not going to prove anything in this thread. But who knows, maybe someone sees this and says "hey I got a dumper but never thought it was rare since it is only a $400 can in the book". :smile:
Some of the best discussions on this site involve beating something nearly to death, and we're working the Honer's over pretty good too. A dedicated thread might draw more readers, though. Short of a "Now Introducing . . .) ad from the concave bottom time frame, I don't know how we'd ever prove the FBIR didn't exist.

I saw the group of 27 FBIR cones quite a few times when they were still together, and I never thought to be suspicious of any of them because I knew who owned them previously. A knowledgeable KC collector spotted it right away, though.

Marc
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#74

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ConeAddict wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:24 am For those here involved in the USBC supplement shouldn't the Goetz FBIR be delisted?
The mocked up Goetz, and the cut down Blitz-Weinhard "cones" should be delisted as fakes as should 2 046 30 0 (dark brown label-Brown Derby - Pittsburgh) which is simply a misprint with the last coat of orange paint missing from the label.
Those Blitz "cones" were both for sale at one point on-line for $5000 for the pair (Tavern Trove I think) and I seriously considered buying them until I researched into them more on this site and in the USBC books and thought better of it. (Rusty Bunch knowledge is not just power it is also my money)
That Brown Derby, can though it does exist, has frustrated a lot of people trying to find it when it is simply a one off misprint. (I have a Brown Derby that looks exactly like it but is missing the last orange coat on only 1/2 of the can).

USBC should strive for accuracy in it's reference listings...if they leave them in, at least note them as "fakes" or "misprints". Maybe open a "fake" and "misprint" section and shift a lot of the "test" cans to the "misprint" section where they belong?

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#75

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I think all or most Production cans start out at the beginning as a Mock up can or prototype/concept can. SO, I would not be so quick to call the Goetz a fake or wrong artist rendering. I think it could be proven as Real if a Real one was to surface but if one never does I don't think that means it's not real. Just proves we can't prove it's real, or not real. I agree with many misprints should be removed from Test cans section of book but like Goetz how do we prove they are just misprints & not test cans, which are different then test marketed cans. LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#76

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Leon wrote:I think all or most Production cans start out at the beginning as a Mock up can or prototype/concept can. SO, I would not be so quick to call the Goetz a fake or wrong artist rendering. I think it could be proven as Real if a Real one was to surface but if one never does I don't think that means it's not real. Just proves we can't prove it's real, or not real. I agree with many misprints should be removed from Test cans section of book but like Goetz how do we prove they are just misprints & not test cans, which are different then test marketed cans. LEON.
I know I can prove the Pittsburgh Brown Derby, the green Lucky “Christmas” cans and the Olympia silver test cans in the books are misprints or oxidized cans. I have a silver version of every label style Olympia can they ever put out....all misprints. The green Lucky cans are oxidized paint....I had one with a sticker that blocked that areas oxidization and the paint under the sticker on the “green” can was the gold version in the books. I have heard some back story on the two Blitz cones that they were factory made mock ups but didn’t think it was proven enough to my satisfaction to spend $5000 on.

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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#77

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Yes, I'm sure some can be proven to be misprints or weather related side effects but some others may be more difficult. I was never convinced the older Silver Budweiser was a legit production can, I always felt the 1 or 2 indoor cans known where just misprints missing the gold layer of paint while most dumpers are just faded away gold. The Blitz cones have always been very suspicious & questionable in my opinion. LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#78

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Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:17 pm I think all or most Production cans start out at the beginning as a Mock up can or prototype/concept can. SO, I would not be so quick to call the Goetz a fake or wrong artist rendering. I think it could be proven as Real if a Real one was to surface but if one never does I don't think that means it's not real. Just proves we can't prove it's real, or not real. I agree with many misprints should be removed from Test cans section of book but like Goetz how do we prove they are just misprints & not test cans, which are different then test marketed cans. LEON.
Earlier in the thread I thought it was likely that there was at least some test cans of the Goetz FBIR, that was based on the timing of that ad in Feb 36. But now after Marc pointed out that he thought it was a photo I took a longer look at it, I think it is very likely they just did a touch up over another can photo. In addition to the mettalic gold not showing up there is a black line along the bottom seam that is not on any of the Goetz cones that I know of. So my thought would be that there was not an example at the time of that ad or they would have used it, I think Continental used real photos in all the other ads in the cone top bible. Just my 2 cents, I think it should be delisted.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#79

Post by Leon »

ConeAddict wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:17 pm I think all or most Production cans start out at the beginning as a Mock up can or prototype/concept can. SO, I would not be so quick to call the Goetz a fake or wrong artist rendering. I think it could be proven as Real if a Real one was to surface but if one never does I don't think that means it's not real. Just proves we can't prove it's real, or not real. I agree with many misprints should be removed from Test cans section of book but like Goetz how do we prove they are just misprints & not test cans, which are different then test marketed cans. LEON.
Earlier in the thread I thought it was likely that there was at least some test cans of the Goetz FBIR, that was based on the timing of that ad in Feb 36. But now after Marc pointed out that he thought it was a photo I took a longer look at it, I think it is very likely they just did a touch up over another can photo. In addition to the mettalic gold not showing up there is a black line along the bottom seam that is not on any of the Goetz cones that I know of. So my thought would be that there was not an example at the time of that ad or they would have used it, I think Continental used real photos in all the other ads in the cone top bible. Just my 2 cents, I think it should be delisted.

I'm not sure what your talking about, what photo was Marc pointing out & who did a touch up on another can photo? Do you got a pic of photo in question? LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#80

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Leon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:41 pm

I'm not sure what your talking about, what photo was Marc pointing out & who did a touch up on another can photo? Do you got a pic of photo in question? LEON.
The February 36 Continental ad you posted earlier in the thread, it is also in the cone top bible. The cone portion of the can looks like it is from a photo but the body of the can looks like some company artist filled in the Goetz graphics in place of whatever can it was. "Touch up" was probably a confusing choice of words, especially among us.

Edit: rereading Marc's post he may have been referring to another ad as he called it a group ad but I think that is the one with the CB /RR Goetz? At any rate I am just saying I haven't see a real photo of the FBIR Goetz.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#81

Post by ConeAddict »

These are the February and March Continental ads, notice how the metallic portions of the 4 cans in March are clearly visible. I don't know, maybe the entire Goetz can is artwork but the cone seems to be from a photo to my eyes.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#82

Post by Leon »

What I want to know is why didn't the March 1936 Ad say 5 more leading Brewer's join the Parade with that FB/IR Goetz in the Pic? And do they mean 4 more since there 1935 December Ad showing numerous cones? LEON.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#83

Post by jwjohnson86 »

I would add the National Sportsman Ale green flat to the Michigan rare list also.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#84

Post by Cap-Sealed »

I'd like to see an "Unknown in Mint" list.... only a dumper(s) known. Manhattan Bock comes to mind... Ortliebs Bock Ale....
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#85

Post by stringsx24now »

Re: unknown in mint list--what about the Philipsburg conetop found a few years ago? And was a Dingle Bay ever found in Gr. 1 or better?
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#86

Post by Rand »

stringsx24now wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:45 pm Re: unknown in mint list--what about the Philipsburg conetop found a few years ago? And was a Dingle Bay ever found in Gr. 1 or better?
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#87

Post by Rand »

Cap-Sealed wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:30 pm I'd like to see an "Unknown in Mint" list.... only a dumper(s) known. Manhattan Bock comes to mind... Ortliebs Bock Ale....
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#88

Post by barfly »

Plusonegolfer; this has been discussed on this site before, check out "The Toughest Can From Each State" Posting in the Archives! Criteria was discussed and many of the real heavyweights from around the country kicked in with their thoughts. An excellent post and it would be interesting to see updated information on new finds how that list would look today! :smt024
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#89

Post by Scott »

It would be a fun list to compile, probably worthy of a new thread. You need to set some parameters though. For example "mint" is very subjective and in my opinion, there are very few truly mint cans. The list ought to be limited to cans where the only known examples are outdoor found dumpers. Anything where there is an indoorish example is excluded even if the best example has some scuffs, light humidity etc.

Also you should avoid going down the Lilek rabbit hole and limit it to major variations. If you can't spot the difference from five feet away it does not make the cut. That eliminates patent numbers, can company logos and other minutae that so many of us (myself included to some extent) like so much. Most minty guys avoid the minor variations because its too dang expensive to chase them. After dropping a few grand on a label, they are content with one nice example and don't need the other three minor variations. It's hard to fault them for that logic.

In my mind the whole point of the list would be to determine what cans the minty guys will never have in their collections unless they can stomach looking at a rusty turd among their prized jewels.
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Re: Rarest cans by state - has there ever been a list?

#90

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