Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
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Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
With all the recent discussion brought up in the thread about breweriana.com's upcoming auction featuring Keith Belchers items, I thought I would start a separate thread to discuss keeping the agreement or not.
For those of you who may not have been around when this was discussed before here it is.
With such a highly competitive atmosphere between collectors to find rare items, it was discussed here that a "gentleman's agreement" should exist that simply states that current ebay auctions should not be discussed until they were finished. The exception was that If you were they one selling an item on ebay, you were free to bring the auction to everyone's attention here to help your sale.
It just so happens that a perfect example of this type of auction happened this week. The auction in question was for a Bavarian's Old Style cone top. This cone is very common with the exception of when it is IRTP. The IRTP variation is extremely rare and maybe 6 to 8 are known to exist. This cone has been discussed on this site numerous times. No where in the auction is it noted that the can is IRTP. This cone closed at $255.00. A super deal in my opinion (I paid much more for the one I bought).
Here is the auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bavarian-039-s- ... 7675.l2557
I could have brought this can to the attention of this group. I was not required to keep it quiet, it is just the common courtesy of the "gentleman's agreement" that I did not say anything. Would the can have sold for more if it was "outted"? Who knows? Did it hurt the value of the can I own by selling for much lower than what I paid...Maybe?
Are there exceptions? The recent Rosalie auction would seem to imply that there are. The fact that a Rosalie is such a high profile can, one would imagine that it would never go under the radar, so it really isn't quite the same thing. Also, 6 posts into this thread the actual seller (not a current member of the RB) of the can chimed in thanking the original poster.
The thread on the Keith Belcher auction is what prompted this thread. I don't really see it as being applicable to this discussion. That is an auction as a whole. If there were specific items pointed out within the auction, then I think it could be argued that the gentleman's agreement should apply.
I honestly don't care one way or the other on this. I just know that bad blood can be created when the competitive juices are flowing. The "Gentleman's Agreement" was an attempt to try and keep that to a minimum.
What do you guys think?
Jim
For those of you who may not have been around when this was discussed before here it is.
With such a highly competitive atmosphere between collectors to find rare items, it was discussed here that a "gentleman's agreement" should exist that simply states that current ebay auctions should not be discussed until they were finished. The exception was that If you were they one selling an item on ebay, you were free to bring the auction to everyone's attention here to help your sale.
It just so happens that a perfect example of this type of auction happened this week. The auction in question was for a Bavarian's Old Style cone top. This cone is very common with the exception of when it is IRTP. The IRTP variation is extremely rare and maybe 6 to 8 are known to exist. This cone has been discussed on this site numerous times. No where in the auction is it noted that the can is IRTP. This cone closed at $255.00. A super deal in my opinion (I paid much more for the one I bought).
Here is the auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bavarian-039-s- ... 7675.l2557
I could have brought this can to the attention of this group. I was not required to keep it quiet, it is just the common courtesy of the "gentleman's agreement" that I did not say anything. Would the can have sold for more if it was "outted"? Who knows? Did it hurt the value of the can I own by selling for much lower than what I paid...Maybe?
Are there exceptions? The recent Rosalie auction would seem to imply that there are. The fact that a Rosalie is such a high profile can, one would imagine that it would never go under the radar, so it really isn't quite the same thing. Also, 6 posts into this thread the actual seller (not a current member of the RB) of the can chimed in thanking the original poster.
The thread on the Keith Belcher auction is what prompted this thread. I don't really see it as being applicable to this discussion. That is an auction as a whole. If there were specific items pointed out within the auction, then I think it could be argued that the gentleman's agreement should apply.
I honestly don't care one way or the other on this. I just know that bad blood can be created when the competitive juices are flowing. The "Gentleman's Agreement" was an attempt to try and keep that to a minimum.
What do you guys think?
Jim
I shall leave no cone unturned!!
- idigrust
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
no. As I stated in the original thread sometime back, show me the $1000.00 can someone got for $5.00 bucks and I'll change my mind.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Many Rusty Bunchers list their own auctions in the Advertise section of the forum. This is fine. Whether you are selling your items exclusively through these forums, or a public auction site, that's what the advertise section is for. I have also looked at some of those listings and thought "man, I wish he hadn't told all these people who that would bid against me", but it is what it is, and they're advertising. It's all good.Conehead wrote:I honestly don't care one way or the other on this. I just know that bad blood can be created when the competitive juices are flowing. The "Gentleman's Agreement" was an attempt to try and keep that to a minimum.
What do you guys think?
Jim
I have also had Rusty Bunchers send me PM's, notifying me of auctions on ebay that they thought would interest me, as I have done as well to other members. It's my belief that keeping some of these auctions in private, did actually keep the price down for me. So I can understand why or how the so-called gentleman's agreement came into being. Not all listings on ebay are listed properly, and some can escape notice of those who don't have time to find the ones that aren't listed where, or as they should be.
If it stays, it stays, and it's all good, we proceed accordingly. If it goes, it goes, and we all proceed accordingly. I kind of like it, but I will get along just fine without it... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I can go either way on this subject. This web site is about the free flow of information. It is not about trying to acquire cans at under market prices. I am more of a feeling that alerting people to certain items they might have missed is a PERK of joining the RB. By keeping quiet, NON RB people are just as likely to end up with the item as one of us. Yes, this has bitten me several times but as a whole I am more about the information and the discussion than I am about snaking a can on the cheap.
As far as Dan Morian's auction, that would not even come close to applying to the "Gentleman's Agreement" type situation. Way too big and way too public to not be discussed. Dan is actively advertising it and he is a sponsor here. It is obviously going to be discussed. I personally don't have an issue with the individual items being discussed either. I ordered my catalog but have not received it yet. Not sure what's in it.
As I said, I could go either way in that if the large majority decide they WANT the Agreement, I have no problem abiding.... Just my $0.02
As far as Dan Morian's auction, that would not even come close to applying to the "Gentleman's Agreement" type situation. Way too big and way too public to not be discussed. Dan is actively advertising it and he is a sponsor here. It is obviously going to be discussed. I personally don't have an issue with the individual items being discussed either. I ordered my catalog but have not received it yet. Not sure what's in it.
As I said, I could go either way in that if the large majority decide they WANT the Agreement, I have no problem abiding.... Just my $0.02
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- OhioCanGuy
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I vote yes. Let the auction run its course before posting. If it is your own auction, feel free to fan the flames!
Bob
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I am going to have to stick to my original answer and say "no" to any type of can info censorship.
My reasoning is that many times RB collectors may want to ask questions about a can and its too late after the auction. They want to bid but need some direction or questions answered.
We are a group that stresses sharing information. The more we share the better.
I thought long and hard about answering this thread again because it got pretty contentious last time and I think its still a hot button issue for some of those who replied in the last thread.
If we start imposing self censorship about what and when to post (about cans) we start limiting the amount of sharing we accomplish here.
This is a hobby and not a race. Share away as far as I'm concerned. JMHO
My reasoning is that many times RB collectors may want to ask questions about a can and its too late after the auction. They want to bid but need some direction or questions answered.
We are a group that stresses sharing information. The more we share the better.
I thought long and hard about answering this thread again because it got pretty contentious last time and I think its still a hot button issue for some of those who replied in the last thread.
If we start imposing self censorship about what and when to post (about cans) we start limiting the amount of sharing we accomplish here.
This is a hobby and not a race. Share away as far as I'm concerned. JMHO
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
My opinion "no" need for restrictions on these type of posts. Ebay is public information and seen by everyone. Yes, I fully understand someone thinking they might get a "steal" if an auction not discussed, but quite often just the inverse could very much help pointing out variation differences to other collectors. Start restricting here and just going to help drive people away. There are plenty of other online resources (already multiple beer can Facebook pages for example) where Ebay auctions are readily discussed.
I know sellers should do research and their problem, but I personally don't like seeing non-collectors getting pennies on the dollar for rare items.
I know sellers should do research and their problem, but I personally don't like seeing non-collectors getting pennies on the dollar for rare items.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
The gentlemen do not agree, obviously. So I vote no.
I also am against the principle of the thing. It is largely unenforceable -- there's no way to make sure every newb on the site knows that rule, or remembers it when an exciting can comes by. The RB member is just as likely to be the seller as the buyer. It's already got the mention-it-if-you're-the-seller exception. And the Rosalie exception, though why exactly is that an exception, and where do we draw the line where that exception stops? Quasi-rules are never easy to pin down -- is it a rule? Is it not? And when a dispute happens, what are the exact provisions of a not-written-down-anywhere-or-officially-adopted rule?
More trouble than it's worth.
I also am against the principle of the thing. It is largely unenforceable -- there's no way to make sure every newb on the site knows that rule, or remembers it when an exciting can comes by. The RB member is just as likely to be the seller as the buyer. It's already got the mention-it-if-you're-the-seller exception. And the Rosalie exception, though why exactly is that an exception, and where do we draw the line where that exception stops? Quasi-rules are never easy to pin down -- is it a rule? Is it not? And when a dispute happens, what are the exact provisions of a not-written-down-anywhere-or-officially-adopted rule?
More trouble than it's worth.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I can see both sides of this but ultimately the individual ebay auctions seem like an obvious discussion driver for a forum like this. I am just recently back into collecting and like the previous poster stated it's nice to read about rarer variations of cans, I saw the auction the OP talked about and never gave it a second look. With so many auctions going on all the time the vast majority are not going to be brought up anyway, but I for one enjoyed the Rosalie thread and wouldn't mind at all if there were more threads like that around here.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
No, it's(censored) stupid. I wouldn't consider abiding by anything so pathetic.
Last edited by josh on Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- sgramling
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Josh, please stop holding back.
A Gentleman's Agreement only works if the gentlemen agree.
Clearly they do not.
A Gentleman's Agreement only works if the gentlemen agree.
Clearly they do not.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
$0.02.....honestly don't care. If I happen to find a can under the radar, I win I guess. If I don't and the G.A. keeps me from knowing about it, I lose. I see it as a 50/50 proposition. GA in place.....I need to do more work to find the under the radar can. GA eliminated, I get to crowd source my ebay searches. If pushed to take a position, I would slip to the side of eliminating the GA.....but again.....I really don't care.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I got one....not sure if it's $1000.....but I got it for WAY less than it would have gone for if it was widely publicized. Very very very common looking can.....however I think it turned out to be the only one known. Pabst OI with the Blue Ribbon words on the front.....however it's WF. Not documented anywhere so I think most didn't even know to look for it:idigrust wrote:no. As I stated in the original thread sometime back, show me the $1000.00 can someone got for $5.00 bucks and I'll change my mind.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I say no to any censorship on posting live auctions. The whole agreement was or is ridiculous and counter productive anyways... IMHO, I have lost many cans because they went beyond my budget.. not because they were posted here!, I may be talking more soda can related but it's the same principle.
This site is about sharing information!...let it flow!
This site is about sharing information!...let it flow!
Ivan... RB #1078 Collector of soda cans & bottles from Canada. Looking for Canadian soada cans 12oz & 10oz From the 1950s right into the 80s.
Also Canadian Beers ,USA Orange Crush bottles And American Drewrys beer cans.
Also Canadian Beers ,USA Orange Crush bottles And American Drewrys beer cans.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I'm with this guy.josh wrote:No, it's stupid. I wouldn't consider abiding by anything so pathetic.
Last edited by Longopener on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Had masked word in post
Reason: Had masked word in post
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Josh, if you weren't so vague we could tell which side you were leaning. As the first person to every show we rely heavily on your advanced scouting and foresight. ....josh wrote:No, it's stupid. I wouldn't consider abiding by anything so pathetic.
Last edited by Longopener on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Masking swear words
Reason: Masking swear words
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
No!!!
Chuck
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
OMG !! I agree with Josh. Also, if it wasn't for someone posting the Rosalie, I wouldn't have seen it and the seller would have made considerably less. My seach parameters are FLAT TOP BEER CANS and it didn't show up there. These heads-up are a perk, plain and simple.
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I second this opinion and will add the "k" in place of the "#" in honor of Josh!!josh wrote:No, it's stupid. I wouldn't consider abiding by anything so pathetic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by Longopener on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Had fuc#ing in the post
Reason: Had fuc#ing in the post
Kamsquared
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Coneheads comment : "This cone is very common with the exception of when it is IRTP. The IRTP variation is extremely rare and maybe 6 to 8 are known to exist"
Conehead Jim, Curious where you got the 6-8 figure. Can you account for these. Last I knew 3 were known to exist, maybe 4. Sweeperman Jim Blackenberry's Bavarians IRTP & Gene Judds can & Yours & the one pictured in the updated online USBC book project is all the same can. Who has the other 5-7? LEON.
P.S. Seems the person that started the agreement is absent from this post
Conehead Jim, Curious where you got the 6-8 figure. Can you account for these. Last I knew 3 were known to exist, maybe 4. Sweeperman Jim Blackenberry's Bavarians IRTP & Gene Judds can & Yours & the one pictured in the updated online USBC book project is all the same can. Who has the other 5-7? LEON.
P.S. Seems the person that started the agreement is absent from this post
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NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?
NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
josh wrote:No, it's stupid. I wouldn't consider abiding by anything so pathetic.
Last edited by Longopener on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Had fuc#ing in the post
Reason: Had fuc#ing in the post
===U.S.A.=== Pre-WWII outdoor beer signs ===U.S.A.===
===U.S.A.===. 1930-1950s ball tap knobs. ===U.S.A.===
===U.S.A.===. 1930-1950s ball tap knobs. ===U.S.A.===
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Leon,Leon wrote:Conehead Jim, Curious where you got the 6-8 figure. Can you account for these. Last I knew 3 were known to exist, maybe 4. Sweeperman Jim Blackenberry's Bavarians IRTP & Gene Judds can & Yours & the one pictured in the updated online USBC book project is all the same can. Who has the other 5-7? LEON.
I can not account for the 6-8 figure. It is just the number that sticks in my head from past conversations with collectors......so maybe the figure should be lower than I am thinking?
Jim
I shall leave no cone unturned!!
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
3 is the number that sticks in my head from a few years ago. Possibly 4th surfaced after that. The recent ebay can could could be #5 if not already counted before. LEON.
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NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?
NOT SO FAVORITE SAYING: SOME CRAZY RICH CLOWN OUTBID ME
ANOTHER SAYING: LIGHTS ARE ON BUT NOBODY'S HOME?
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- Grand Marshall of Rust
- Posts: 1790
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:10 am
- Rusty Bunch Member Number: 991
- BCCA Number: 22344
- eBay name: NVchristian
- Year Started Collecting: 1978
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
- Has thanked: 131 times
- Been thanked: 114 times
- Zodiac:
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- Status: Offline
Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
NO! Gentlemen help other members find cans they are looking for. I like to know when a special can shows up for auction.
Brian Artzberger #22344
http://www.artzberger.com/BeerCans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Collector of 12 oz or smaller US cans
Servant of Jesus, John 3:16, 14:6
http://www.artzberger.com/BeerCans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Collector of 12 oz or smaller US cans
Servant of Jesus, John 3:16, 14:6
- Lovegun
- Former Officer
- Posts: 4441
- Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:42 am
- Rusty Bunch Member Number: 699
- BCCA Number: 3197
- eBay name: Lovegun1959
- Year Started Collecting: 1936
- Location: West Carrollton, Ohio
- Has thanked: 489 times
- Been thanked: 196 times
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- Status: Offline
Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
What happened to all those in favor when all this brew ha ha started?
Anyways, I still don't really care either way. After all, this is my unwind spot after working 10 hours a day with adults who would love to be able to function and do things like most of us can.
Anyways, I still don't really care either way. After all, this is my unwind spot after working 10 hours a day with adults who would love to be able to function and do things like most of us can.
Greg Gromosiak-RB#699 B.C.C.A.#3197
Former Rusty Bunch President, Current Editor, Miami Valley Guzzelette
scrabble1959@yahoo.com
Turning dirt since 1972
Looking for either Red Top "Old Cincinnati" Beer O.I.!!!!
Former Rusty Bunch President, Current Editor, Miami Valley Guzzelette
scrabble1959@yahoo.com
Turning dirt since 1972
Looking for either Red Top "Old Cincinnati" Beer O.I.!!!!
- CMD
- Former Officer
- Posts: 6471
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:09 pm
- Rusty Bunch Member Number: 122
- BCCA Number: 26172
- eBay name: cactuscans
- Year Started Collecting: 1972
- Location: Fe2O3 Headquarters @ Albuquerque
- Has thanked: 8 times
- Been thanked: 155 times
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- Status: Offline
Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Its called common courtesy.....If some blabbermouth points out that Pabst withdrawn free , Rand maybe never get that can or pays 5X 10X or 20Xs more
I define blabbermouth as someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight and has no interest in the can
Cap-sealed found a Propeller can on ebay, it was an unknown variant from Oakland...it was hard to see the mandatory, again if some blabbermouth points it out and makes a post on here............that can may go into four figures instead of the $50 he paid, the only winner is the seller
Of course the GA is unenforced but tell me again why uncommon variants of common cans need to be discussed BEFORE the end of auction?
Discuss away AFTER the end of auction and then everyone will have the knowledge to search for it again if and when it shows up on ebay
The newbie or curious collector could always PM someone for advice (start with any of the board moderators) or ask one of our dealer sponsors
I'm talking about under the radar cans ( aka sleeper cans or variants) and not the obvious wall find indoor OI or high profile ( no pun intended) can that shows up
out
Dan
I define blabbermouth as someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight and has no interest in the can
Cap-sealed found a Propeller can on ebay, it was an unknown variant from Oakland...it was hard to see the mandatory, again if some blabbermouth points it out and makes a post on here............that can may go into four figures instead of the $50 he paid, the only winner is the seller
Of course the GA is unenforced but tell me again why uncommon variants of common cans need to be discussed BEFORE the end of auction?
Discuss away AFTER the end of auction and then everyone will have the knowledge to search for it again if and when it shows up on ebay
The newbie or curious collector could always PM someone for advice (start with any of the board moderators) or ask one of our dealer sponsors
I'm talking about under the radar cans ( aka sleeper cans or variants) and not the obvious wall find indoor OI or high profile ( no pun intended) can that shows up
out
Dan
Wanted Frederick's cone ,Balboa IRTP by Southern Finer, Flavor ale by Monarch, Little Imp, gold IRTP Finer Flavor by Southern, Lucky Lager OI Withdrawn free, white/gold Imperial from Maier, Tornbergs WF cone,Rainier OD cone,Niborg,Acme 3.2% on side panel, Malt Syrup tins or labels,Uncle Dan's Root beer signs ,I-7 openers needed....BALBOA,UNION, ROGER WILLIAMS ALE
I live rent free in his head!
I live rent free in his head!
- Daev Larrazolo
- Supreme Rusty Being
- Posts: 11815
- Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:37 pm
- Rusty Bunch Member Number: 804
- BCCA Number: 31724
- eBay name: HEYBLAMEITONRIO
- Year Started Collecting: 1977
- Location: West Columbia SC
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 2 times
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Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
Just don't bid on the Pacific NW stuff or the Mule Head can in Keith's auction and all will be goog.
WANT ANY MONTANA BREWERIANA
- Conehead
- Former Officer
- Posts: 2419
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:03 am
- Rusty Bunch Member Number: 109
- BCCA Number: 17406
- eBay name: Conehead4
- Year Started Collecting: 1978
- Location: Logan, Utah
- Has thanked: 624 times
- Been thanked: 464 times
- Zodiac:
- Status: Offline
Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
I think CMD brings up a really good point about the "Gentleman's Agreement".
Buy discussing these auctions before close, it gives a huge advantage to the "deep pockets" big guy that may not really know rare variations and can virtually shut the little guy.
The real ace in the hole for the little guy is knowledge. So discussion after auction close can then benefit everyone.
Jim
Buy discussing these auctions before close, it gives a huge advantage to the "deep pockets" big guy that may not really know rare variations and can virtually shut the little guy.
The real ace in the hole for the little guy is knowledge. So discussion after auction close can then benefit everyone.
Jim
I shall leave no cone unturned!!
- steve36333
- Rust Master
- Posts: 376
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:11 pm
- Been thanked: 5 times
- Status: Offline
Re: Should we have a Gentleman's Agreement?
NO. I've got suckered into these gentlemen agreements only to have another member swoop
In on the seller and offer him 20 bucks more after the auction was over.
it's Promote it and win it at any cost. I learned the hard way many times on this topic.
In on the seller and offer him 20 bucks more after the auction was over.
it's Promote it and win it at any cost. I learned the hard way many times on this topic.