Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

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Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#1

Post by Bob L » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:46 pm

A burning question for several of us has been to figure out who produced the Imperial OI can. The cans states "Brewed expressly for Wiebel Brewing Co., New Haven Conn." But, we know this much....they are only dumped in the Ozarks, and Imperial was a house brand of 905 liquor stores in St. Louis. Pictures of the can are featured in 905's newspaper ads of the time. But, who produced the can? The prevailing theory has always been that it was a product of Manhattan in Chicago along with all the other cans that feature "expressly for" or similar verbage. The side panels of the Imperial can have a manhattan look to them. But the alternate theory held by some is that this can was actually a product of ABC in St. Louis. Some other unknown ghost brewer couldn't be ruled out either. I spent some more time at the library today viewing microfilm of old 905 newspaper ads in search of some additional insights into this question. I was always firmly in the Manhattan camp, but I have to say that I'm now switching over to the ABC side. Let me acknowledge up front that there was most likely some degree of cross-pollination between ABC and Manhattan as discussed in the previous ABC/Manhattan thread. But I don't believe that all of the ABC Brewing Company cans of the later era were filled in Chicago (Black Dallas, Triangle, ABC, etc.) I just don't think that was the case, at least until after ABC closed its doors for good. In fact, I'm now thinking that the Imperial can came out of the ABC Brewing Company in St. Louis, and this belief is based on the timeline that I will describe below.

By the way, here is the previous ABC/Manhattan thread for reference. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16734

Let's review the ownership history of the St. Louis ABC brewery.

1935 to 5/37 ABC Corp era, partial ownership by Terre Haute
5/37 to late 38 Still ABC Corp. but fully owned by Terre Haute
Late 38 to 3/39 Brewery shut down, but used as distributor for Terre Haute
3/39 to 1/31/40 Brewery back in operation under Louis Kanne ownership
1/31/40 Brewery shut down for good.

The 905 store newspaper ads are fascinating. They ran a weekly ad every Friday (except for a short period of Thursdays) all through the 1930's and early 1940's. The ads regularly showed pictures of their house brands or other featured brands for sale. Their house brands included Mountain Top, Anglers, Johnny Bull Ale; and they extensively featured Cream Top for sale in steinie bottles and Prima Gold Medal OI cans as their flagship advertisement brands. For a time in late 1938 and early 1939, the featured brands are Prima, Cream Top and Angler. Beginning in mid May 1939, Mountain Top appears as a "new" brand, and then a week later the Imperial can is rolled out as a "new" brand available. The combination of Mountain Top and Imperial are then the dominant beer brands advertised for the 10 month period of time up until mid March 1940. At that time, the Imperial brand is phased out of the advertising. Over the space of 3 weeks, the picture of the can is removed with the ad only listing it by name. And then on 4/5/1940 the ad only only lists "Extra Pale Canned Beer" (without saying Imperial) as the last reference to the brand to ever appear in a 905 ad. Following this, they go back to featuring Prima OI's in tandem with Mountain Top, with the typical lesser references to Angler, Johnny Bull and other typical St. Louis brands available.

So, here's the short story:

3/39 to 1/31/40 Brewery back in operation under Louis Kanne ownership
5/39 to 4/5/40 Imperial brand featured in 905 ads.

This timeline overlay is too compelling to be a coincidence. The Imperial brand surfaces 2 months after ABC comes back to life under Louis Kanne, and then the Imperial brand disappears forever 2 months after ABC shuts its doors, with that final 2 months probably being the time it took 905 to sell off their remaining Imperial inventory. The resemblance of the Imperial side panels to Manhattan cans is perhaps a result of Kanne being an ex-Manhattan guy, probably still connected in some way. Perhaps Manhattan (or their ACCO contacts) assisted their crony Kanne with the label design work. To me, the timing is too compelling. I say the Imperial can was a product of the Louis Kanne era at ABC in St. Louis.

After ABC closed up for good in early 1940, then the various ABC-produced brands (including bottled contract brews for store chains) were picked up by other breweries like Manhattan & Mound City, or were simply dropped, like Imperial appears to have been.

Paul, Herman, Kotto, others......let's hear your 2 cents on this topic.
905 mountain top imperial 2.jpg
Ad from 5/1939 St. Louis Globe Democrat
imperial.JPG
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#2

Post by RustyGoats » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:46 pm

im with you, id say ABC also, i was looking at the OI book the other night and ABC had some wild off brands and besides the red ABC can they are tuff cans, just off top of my head ..... ABC ALE, BLACK DALLAS, AND TRIANGLE .... and why not IMPERIAL, sounds like it would fall into that group.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#3

Post by PreWar » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:20 pm

This document Paul found in his stuff to me leaves to much open on whole Manhattan connection and who was ordering the cans, DURING a time Terre Haute was supposed operating business.
here.JPG
Shows Louis Kanne was big part of Manhattan, a front man placing orders with ACCO exec and dealing directly with a main Manhattan sales company distributor.

If Paul can find documents signed by Kanne from the 39-40 time period of ABC ownership showing he was still heading Manhattan dealings, it would be a no brainer.

I'm pretty sure Kanne was back with Greenberg and Manhattan after ABC ceased to exist, and then was placed with Atlas Brewing by Greenberg and Manhattan associates in the late 40's.

Another thing I find interesting is all the ABC (st louis?) product being marketed by known Manhattan distributors and sales companies during the time frame that ABC St Louis was under Terre Haute control and when said to be idle after Terre Haute stopped operations. Who was filling this stuff and why was Kanne inquiring about stock from ACCO at a time when he was still busy with Manhattan goings on?

Why does numerous (MANY) newspaper ads from 1936 to 1940 all show linkage to Manhattan associated sales companies and distributors selling these ABC brands nationwide? Would not Terre Haute and their CV branding had their own distributors and sales reps network? As search shows NO, NONE, not a one of Terre Haute Brewing companies sales reps or distributors handling the ABC branding. Furthermore, the newspaper ads actually show that sales and distribution areas of the ABC products far out reached Terre Haute Brewing distribution areas. Time after time in ads these distributors can be seen selling ABC beer one week, and another known Manhattan product the next. The newspaper ads don't lie...

On a separate note, the owner of Terre Haute brewing in 1937 newspaper articles goes into great depth just how much they value the glass bottle as THE container for beer, almost a disdain for canned beer, to the point they put all their chips into new bottling lines and bottles, boasting quite a bit about this and how they would expand their products to new markets in the superior container -- the bottle... They didn't can their flagship brand CV for couple years later and then in small canning entrant Crown Cork and Seal container. Why wouldn't they go with ACCO for canning if they already had the connections and dealings with ACCO in ordering Keglined cans for the St Louis plant? BECAUSE they never placed the orders in the first place as clearly shown by the document above?

Connect the dots as you may, maybe speculation, but strong evidence shows a Manhattan hand in canning and distribution of ABC brands all along.

Imperial may be a ABC brand, but who was really pulling strings of ABC anyways?

Somethins still fishy in St Louis?

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#4

Post by Kotto » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:35 pm

On most of the occasions that I've dug Imperials, ABC's have been laying side by side. In one dump I clearly recall that there were only two brands: ABC and Imperial. No Buds, no Pabst, only these two brands. Hmmm.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#5

Post by Rockbob » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:07 am

Something else to ponder. Who ran the 905 stores? The only brands I've noticed in those 905 ads are Manhattan and ABC brands. Did they carry Bud, Griesedieck, Stag, or even Champagne Velvet? Was 905 a 1930's version of a tied house? Did Manhattan can ABC's brands in Chicago? I dont see why not. ABC was a very small local brewer. No way did they have the capability to ship nationwide. Manhattan had the capacity, and connections to do just that. Yes, ABC had a canning line, however I dont think they had the capacity to brew and can, what, like 5 brands, and ship them all over the country. Kanne may have been listed as owner of ABC, but he also had an office at Manhattan in the same time frame? ABC did can their beers, Manhattan helped.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#6

Post by Cap-Sealed » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:56 am

Everytime I dig ABCs, there's Manhattans right next to them!

Nice research and theories.... Rich la Susa says there is an absence of Imperial info in his Manhattan files.... only one reference.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#7

Post by PreWar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:07 am

Revelent to above discussion of ABC Brewing and Imperial? Probably not, but interesting none the less as noting who 905 liquors was does create linkage in the big picture...

from fuzzy memory I think the Kefauver Commitee crime hearings refered to 905 liquors as a operation run by Joe Fusco associates (Gold Seal Liquor) I'm trying to find that info... Maybe if anyone gets back to St Louis library records they can look up who operated (owned or was Pres of) the 905 liquor stores chain in the 30s to 50s...

As far as noteworthy linkage, look at who after WWII did business with 905 liquors, and dont think its just coincidence... those liquor businesses had tight affiliation with "partners in crime" so to speak... So when product was contracted, an associate within the organization was used...

905 beer post war was produced by... Atlas Brewing (where Kanne was positioned by Greenberg after WWII) and Canadian Ace (Gold Brau) who also canned ABC Beer and Ale...

Same as it ever was

I think Rich L has some real light to shed on all this if he releases his master works soon... One reference? really? For a likely single run can (250,000 units) one reference (from Manhattan on branding) that still exists is huge... Im kind of under the impression that Imperial had a different market intent possibly went bad with Feds really looking into who was behind what brandings in the Manhattan association scheme of things and 905 was possibly a market of convienence to blow the stuff out, a one time six month or whatever push to move the stock, given to the liquor store by the brewer as a price beer. Noteworthy other main beer marketed through 905 is Prima Gold Medal, no doubt a Manhattan branding.


a bit off track as usual, who was Joe Fusco? check out this Life Mag article... http://books.google.com/books?id=tUoEAA ... rs&f=false Fusco was said to control most liquor trade in the Midwest. Note in that article who Fusco's President was... Milton Friedman, yes that Milton Friedman, google him if you need to... and think Fusco didnt have some connections on all sides of the fence? check out this little bit from the past...

The Kennedy family--old Joe Kennedy--had been involved with the mob since the days of Prohibition, and specifically with the Chicago mob. That were even references to this in the Kefauver Commission. Legitimate Kennedy investments were largely in Chicago. The Kennedys owned the Trade Mart in Chicago, which was a very major investment. After Prohibition, Joe Kennedy had a liquor distributing company along with a mob man named Joe Fusco. When John Kennedy first ran for Congress in '46, Joe Kennedy did a smart thing--he sold off his liquor interests so that he would not have these conspicuous mob connections anymore.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#8

Post by Bob L » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:33 am

The complete lack of anything that resembles Terre Haute's influence in the ABC operation is certainly telling. I think the whole Terre Haute thing must have been a cover for Manhattan in some way, and there was no real involvement frome TH in ABC's operations. I think we can all agree that the strings of ABC were being pulled from Chicago, but it's just hard to figure out to what extent. I'm sticking with my belief that canning was being done in St. Louis, even in the later "Company" era, but likely being directed from Chicago. And so I believe the Imperial can originated from the St. Louis plant and then disappeared when the St. Louis plant was closed. The timing is too compelling.

As john said, the Imperial and ABC cans were often found side by side in the Ozarks with enough frequency and exclusivity that it could lead one to think that they were possibly sold together. However, the ABC brand is not listed anywhere in the multitude of 905 ads that I have examined. If 905 stores sold ABC beer, then they certainly didn't promote it in their advertising. Hmmm. 905 did advertise/sell the other expected local and national brands such as Schlitz, Old Milwaukee, Pabst and Old Tankard Ale, Alpen Brau, Griesedieck, Hyde Park, Stag, Falstaff, and yes... Manhattan.

Rich LaSusa told me that he did not find even one single reference to Imperial in the Manhattan files. Not even one obscure reference anywhere.

If only Kanne were still alive and could be interviewed!!

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#9

Post by Bob L » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:05 am

Some quick Googling suggests that the owner of the 905 chain in the 30's was Morris Multin. Got anything on him? Does his name ever appear in the trail of info on the Chicago characters?

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#10

Post by Cap-Sealed » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:05 am

Bob - lets definetly dump together this year, and we can discuss this topic in depth around the campfire with a few beers after a hard day of digging 30s cans! Start thinking about some dates and locations....

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#11

Post by CMD » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:52 am

Do New England guys consider it a New England can since it has a CT mandatory?????

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#12

Post by Longhorn Mike » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:27 am

905 beer post war was produced by... Atlas Brewing (where Kanne was positioned by Greenberg after WWII) and Canadian Ace (Gold Brau) who also canned ABC Beer and Ale...
Was the version of ABC beer & ale produced by Atlas, Gold Brau (and later Wagner, Eastern & Duncan) a continuation of the St. Louis ABC brand or were they the house brand for the ABC liquor store chain in Florida? As a young collector, I remember my dad buying ABC from Eastern in the ABC Liquor store in Orlando during a trip to Disneyland in the late 70's, and I personnally bought ABC from Auburndale FL during a business trip to central florida in the 90's.

I know there is a version of the 9-0-5 cans that uses the same design as the later ABC cans. Were the Atlas and Gold Brau versions sold (and dumped) in the St. Louis area?

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#13

Post by PreWar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:49 am

I would think since Weibel closed brewing operations in 1936 it would be tough to consider the Imperial can a real product from New Haven CT ?

Issued permit CONN-U-?? allowing the operation of a brewery after Repeal 1933
The Wiebel Brewing Co. 1933-1936
Closed in 1936
Status of the brewery property is unknown


-------------------------


As for Morris Multin, he was called the liquor czar of St Louis and had a storried past including in 1925 being arested on charges of violation of the prohibition act. He along with nine other associates were tried and Multin recieved a sentance of two years in prison and $5000 fine for his part. He served his sentance in Leavenworth.

The names of his co-defendants themselves have storried past and future involvement with Chicago outfit and Capone associates... One even ending up on the wrong end of a mob hit...

Its clear Morris Multin was more than just a average St Louis liquor store chain owner. His clear association with the co conspiritors he was charged along with shows he had organized crime connections in St Louis and to Chicago syndicate.

http://turtletalk.files.wordpress.com/2 ... v-egan.pdf


The involvement or association of these distributors, sales companies and liquor store chains and the people behind them ordering brands from Manhattan are a really interesting part of the total equasion! Brands like Black Dallas have such linkage in who was involved... There are some common threads that run through brands filled by Manhattan and the outlets that marketed these brands, many of whom went on to become huge liquor distributing empires in the following decades.

I hope Rich L does his research and covers how all these parts are relevant to the whole story in his book. Everything creates linkage and it all ties together, it didnt end with Manhattan, it continues with Canadian Ace and other associated enterprises such as Atlas Brewing and their involvement with these same characters. The brands themselves can create linkage to brewers across the country over the decades.

Most of these associations were boring business ventures, it just happens that those involved built such with their involvement during prohibition. They were businessmen trying to make an honest living in the legal trade of liquor... certainly didnt hurt that they forged some great connections while liquor was less than legal, and used these connections to their advantage to profit and excel over competition with the help of what the government investigating organized crime felt were unfair trade practices.

One thing is sure, no matter the stories behind, we can thank them for the many varried labels they canned for these markets that now grace our shelves.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#14

Post by bradflinders » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:16 pm

Cap-Sealed wrote:Everytime I dig ABCs, there's Manhattans right next to them!

Nice research and theories.... Rich la Susa says there is an absence of Imperial info in his Manhattan files.... only one reference.
Everytime I did ABC's there's 4 panel Black Eagles right next to them!!
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#15

Post by PreWar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:27 pm

Yep... I could see that happening Brad depending on where you buy your beer in Albuquerque...
!!!ABC Black Eagle.jpg
Dont suppose they sold Manhattan brands there huh?

Oh yeah, ABC was from St Louis, Black Eagle was from Class & Nachod Philly PA, and Prima was by Prima Brewing Chicago... right? RIGHT...

more likely it all was shipped in the same rail box car from one place... any guesses?


Kinda like this one... Love this pic, and interesting distributor loading up the product, Wasnt Schultz beer and Ale selling well?
whitehorsepostcard1.jpg

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#16

Post by RustyGoats » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:38 pm

it just sounds to me like the mob had beer breweries in alot of places like the tales of prohibition shows ..... these breweries were all probally run by the same men and organization .... all these cans pretty much have the same look (like manhatten cans do) ABC, MANHATTEN, AND BLACK EAGLE ..... IMPERIAL ..... all these cans have look of manhatten cans or have a tie, so if i had to bet money on it, they were all associated and ran by the mob, with the main brewery MANHATTEN, and branching out into other locations.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#17

Post by Tom Hoefer » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:10 pm

I have no evidence to bring to the subject, but I love these kinds of threads. Really fascinating to read.

Do we have any evidence that ABC actually installed a canning line? Do we have any records from ACCO that indicate they did. If there is evidence that they had a canning line, something concrete, then I think it's pretty obvious that ABC canned the beers that say ABC on them. Whenever Manhattan brewed for somebody else, like Food City or Whitewater or Lubeck, they did not have canning lines--that's why Manhattan was canning for them. If ABC had a canning line, a very expensive item in the 30s, I guarantee they were using it. Somebody find real solid evidence that they had an ACCO line installed then the argument is over.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#18

Post by PreWar » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 pm

hmmm...

Something to think about here... linkage and all...

I kept thinking about what would tie the Imperial label to some brewer, then it struck me, the left side of label, in the description of benefits of beer... Read it... it reads exactly like only one other can.

...non-refillable, lightproof and tamperproof and is designed to bring you this fine beer with all possible protection to its flavor and goodness.

that string of words only apears on one other can... the FIRST ABC Beer ! the 1936 "checker board" OI can by ABC Brewing Corp has the same exact wording on the right side below the OI panel in the second half of the description.

Yet the ABC and Imperial cans are 4 years apart, by supposed differing owners, and the successive ABC cans didnt carry the same wording... Very odd indeed...

Yet I am drawn back to the wording Packed Expressly For as I look at cans from same era like Black Eagle by Class & Nachod, Cream Top by Whitewater, English Lad, Prima, White Horse, Rosalie, Badger, Autocrat, Old Gold, Windsor, seeing a patern here yet?

The Imperial screams Manhattan, yet connects to ABC, the tie I guess would be Louis Kanne doing the ordering of can stock from ACCO as clearly seen from document Paul shared, which clearly is adressed to Manhattan Brewing Company at a time before Kanne took over "control" of the reorganized ABC brewing Company.

Obviously Kanne had influence on the ABC Brewing Corp... Pre-dating the supposed re-opening by Kanne of ABC Brewing Company as a new entity... which just makes one wonder if Manhattan was placing orders for ABC Beer can stock to ACCO in the era of ABC Brewing Corp, and Manhattan sales compaines were in the loop with the brewer and ACCO on stock ordered (for them to sell)... As well as solid proof marketing distribution and sales of ABC products including ABC Beer and Old St Louis Beer and Ale from 1936 to 1940 were being executed by well known Manhattan jobbers in known Manhattan marketing areas nationwide...

Lets review one more time... Predating account of 1939 take over of ABC St Louis plant by Kanne, Orders are placed to American Can Company exec and ACCO is producing the can stock in the Chicago plant ordered by Kanne under Manhattan directive, Arnold Opler and Associates of Better Beverages based in Chicago (sales company directly responsable for label inceptions and marketing of English Lad and White Horse branding) is in loop directly with order being placed, obviously as involved with distribution and sales of said product, much of which was sold in Chicago area markets by known Manhattan distributors from 1936-40 as clearly shown in ad after ad from newspapers selling ABC Ale and Beer as well as Old St Louis Beer and Ale. Yet they were sending the containers to St Louis to be filled?

Does anyone have SOLID proof that ABC St Louis plant ever had a ACCO canning line installed?
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#19

Post by Bob L » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:10 pm

Wow Herman! That's a great piece of detective work.

It seems clear that Manhattan was pulling the strings of ABC to a great extent, likely including the design and ordering of cans from ACCO. But, the mystery remains as to whether any or all of those cans were filled in St. Louis or Chicago. The Imperial, Black Dallas, and Triangle cans have some Manhattan characteristics, but the ABC cans and Old St. Louis cans not so much.

I also find it interesting that the Imperial, St. Louis Black Dallas, and Triangle all have a paragraph style side panel, not the line-item style that Manhattan-produced cans typically had. But, after the Black Dallas label shifts to Manhattan, the paragraph story panel is replaced by the line-item style panel.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#20

Post by PreWar » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:39 pm

I've thought about that Bob...

But there are exceptions to every rule, consider the Autocrat can...

and the Old St louis and ABC Beer and Ale from ABC Brewing Corp predate the 1938 change Manhattan made to that more familiar style OI and info on sides. Consider the four panel stuff including that crazy Old Gold 2 pats can, they all existed in the same time frames, many overlapping.

The Lubeck Pats Pending (37) can was earliest can to use familiar Manhattan style OI of later products, then White Horse by Lubeck/Manhattan shortly after (37-38) and most all Manhattan products seemed to follow by Late 38 as they were updated for Fed standards to seperate Brewery and Can info.

How about the Class can instructions? oh yeah, thats another can o worms...

check out these Chicago area liquor ads...

ABC and Manhattan cans...
!!!abcmanhattan.jpg
!!!abcmanhattan.jpg (68.47 KiB) Viewed 9625 times
Old St Louis or White Horse
!!!old stlouis38.jpg
ABC Ale 1938
!!!ABCaleChicago38.jpg
many ads from spring 37 to late 38 at Personal Liquors for Old St Louis Beer and Ale (weekly almost)
!!!chicago38OStLouis.jpg
Selling ABC in cans in Chicago as early as July 1936
!!!abc chicagojuly36.jpg
!!!abc chicagojuly36.jpg (40.46 KiB) Viewed 9610 times
Oddly, Never a Champagne Velvet or any Terre Haute brand sold along side these?

Old St Louis Beer and Ale doesnt show up much at all in MO... but heres a Jefferson City Ad... check out the Canned beers they have toward bottom of ad!
!!!triangle.jpg
Old St Louis does show up in Indiana and Ohio markets along side Lubeck and White Horse as well as Badger and other Manhattan products IN CV's back yard, but not from their distributors and never in same ads.

ABC Beer and Ale ads show up in Texas, Colorado and Montana from 1937-38 again along side other Manhattan brands from week to week. Terre Haute never had distribution in some those western markets in the time period these were being sold.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#21

Post by ozarkridgerunner » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:13 pm

Sorry I have been tardy here, I worked about 80 hours this week. Reading through all of this is a welcome respite.
PreWar wrote:If Paul can find documents signed by Kanne from the 39-40 time period of ABC ownership showing he was still heading Manhattan dealings, it would be a no brainer.

I'm pretty sure Kanne was back with Greenberg and Manhattan after ABC ceased to exist, and then was placed with Atlas Brewing by Greenberg and Manhattan associates in the late 40's.
I spent a couple hours looking through my files, and the last Kanne document is 3/11/1939. I have quite a few docs that run well into 1942, and they begin to thin out in the later years. That said, I will continue to keep an eye out for Kanne references. I will say this that the disappearance of Kanne in 3/39 lines up with his move to ABC, and suggests he did not come right back after they closed the doors in 1940.
Bob L wrote:I say the Imperial can was a product of the Louis Kanne era at ABC in St. Louis.
Bob, I now agree with you, despite hallmarks on the can that point to Manhattan (probably the Kanne influence as you mentined). Your detective work tipped the scales for me. That, combined with Rich also telling me he thought Imperial was ABC, not Manhattan. That alone tells me Rich believes ABC had a canning line and that he has no evidence to suggest Manhattan brewed and canned brands with ABC listed as the brewer. Clearly there is cross-pollentation between the 2 brewers. The St. Louis Brews book says this of Richs Manhattan records cache:
Manhattan documents were found to be chock full of papers concerning the propsed operation and adverstising of the ABC brewery".
While the 2 Manhattan docs I have that mention ABC cans are compelling, given the vague nature of the ABC reference, I can't make the leap that Manhattan was brewing and canning the ABC brands. Also, the fact that Mountain Top was sold at 905 suggests they carried at least one brand known to have been bottled by ABC (I'm trying to suggest they may not have been adverse to carrying ABC products).

I sent both Rich LaSusa and Don Roussin an email asking them if they had any hard evidence of an ABC canning line and also pointed them at these thread on our message board. I can't think of two people that would have more knowledge of these 2 brewers, and both say ABC canned beer. Hopefully they will be able to put this one to bed :) It's also cool that I am now looking at my Imperial in a completly different light! An new St. Louis can is discovered me thinks! That does not mean the Chicago only guys should get rid of their Imperials though, especially because of the cross pollentation factor. If anything, the Chicago guys should start grabbing the ABC brands just to hedge the ABC is Manhattan bet :smile:
Cheers, Paul King
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#22

Post by Cap-Sealed » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:53 am

The bottom line for me is, that the Imperial has been known for over 40 years as a Manhattan can, so it will stay with my Chicago cans no matter what. Same thing goes for the St Louis ABC cans, it could be proven as truely a Chicago can, but they'll never leave the Missouri can collections!

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#23

Post by PreWar » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:54 pm

No comment on the canned Triangle beer being sold in the ad above? Was that previously known info on where it was sold ??

For other documents and sources including Louis Kanne's obit itself it shows that Kanne on Greenbergs request moved from Manhattan Brewing to Atlas Brewing operations in the late 40's.

Seems Kanne was a general Manager sort, that was placed in positions to to oversee operations of given breweries and had great insight on how to conduct business with brewing and all phases including working to help sales companies and private label marketing companies get their brew contract canned and was able to place orders for can stock.

Interesting how after Kanne moves to Atlas there is an explosion in private labels and house brands including stuff for 905 and Bull Dog brand for Joe Fusco (Bohemian Distributing) amoung others...

At this time Canadian Ace stays rather quiet in the contract brewing market, then after Greenberg dies in 1955 it apears Canadian Ace then renews its interests in contract brewing private labels with a slew of house brands from the mid to late 50's and early 60's...


As for ABC, I much look forward to seeing solid information proving that they had a canning line in St Louis. Some pictures, archival docs or actual newspaper press release of something must exist yet. Without any such its all just speculation any direction we go.

...Though we now agree that Imperial was an ABC product... I dont think the entire linkage and associations that Manhattan had with numerous other regional brewers will ever be fully realized or understood. The cans are just a small part of the puzzle pieces... If one looks at bottle labeling it becomes even more aparent there was much allience with many others we dont fully understand...

----------------
On another thought, has anyone ever seen a label called Tiger Ale? brewed for Detroit Distributing?? Though it shows two tigers standing, there are interesting look to those tigers faces and a feel to label that reminds one of another Tiger product...

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#24

Post by oldindiapaleale » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:49 am

CMD wrote:Do New England guys consider it a New England can since it has a CT mandatory?????

out

Dan
Just to change the conversation in a different direction, I consider this a New England can solely on the fact that it says New Haven, Connecticut on the can. I just got one of these and the Acco can codes indicate it to be a 1939 Chicago manufactured can (68A), so here's a few questions:

Was the Imperial can ever sold in Connecticut? Have any ever been dumped in the northeast?

The New England Breweriana book shows Weibel products of which Imperial is not one of them.

Who were the owners of Weibel? Was there a mob connection linking them to ABC or Manhattan?

We know Weibel closed in 1936 but do we know the circumstances? What are the chances that the brewery suspended operations, with the intention of getting financing to modernize the plant and in the meantime contracted their brands to other brewers?

It just seems odd that you have an "Imperial" brand being canned in 1939 and somebody (Kanne?) pulled "Weibel Brewing" out of a hat to use as a mandatory.

Kind of reminds me of Narragansett in the early 1980s, all the labels said Cranston, RI but it was being brewed in Ft. Wayne, IN.

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#25

Post by Tom Hoefer » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:18 am

PreWar wrote:No comment on the canned Triangle beer being sold in the ad above? Was that previously known info on where it was sold ??
I noticed! Has anybody else seen it advertised in print? I've searched for it in my online newspaper archives to no avail.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#26

Post by PreWar » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:12 pm

Tom, I looked for quite some time to happen across that Triangle ad just by chance, a tough search because it is hyphenated... not to mention in searching only a percentage pulls up at any given time... I can search days later and get different results.

Really nice to find an ad confirming it was a brand sold in The greater St Louis Area as speculated. Possibly lends more into it being related to this Triangle Wine and Liquor Company out of Saint Louis, likely a sales company with their own house brands of liquor as seen on the pint booze bottle below.
!triangleStLouis.jpg
Print ads are not glamorous, all they do is mention the brand and sometimes they are inacurate, but it is cool to find where and when rare brands were sold.

Loved the Autocrat ads you posted. I have found some good ones including good links to Sun Gold Beer as being a house brand for a distributor with one ad showing it likely was sold in cans.

Am really hoping to crack the Tiger mistique soon, I think the Detroit Distributing label for Tiger Ale is interesting direction given its slight resemblence and feel... It is tough to tell from the label in the book I have but it could quite possibly be very dark purple and yellow in colors.. anyone have this label or a better pic of the Tiger Ale bottled for Detroit Distributing ?

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#27

Post by Cap-Sealed » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:33 am

Manhattan Blacked-out Lubeck on ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lubeck-Royal-Beer-f ... 2a0eefef30
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#28

Post by RustyGoats » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:09 pm

not to continue the lubeck hijax but it looks like it hasnt been dipped ever ....

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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#29

Post by ozarkridgerunner » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:40 pm

PreWar wrote:No comment on the canned Triangle beer being sold in the ad above? Was that previously known info on where it was sold ??
Herman, sorry I missed that and I think it is a first. Very cool. To find an ad from Jefferson City MO that lists Triangle in cans alongside A.B.C. in cans and no mention of Manhattan brands is killer. The August 1939 date lines up with the Imperial. :)
oldindiapaleale wrote:Was the Imperial can ever sold in Connecticut? Have any ever been dumped in the northeast?
Only known to have been sold and dumped in Missouri.
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Re: Origin of Imperial OI can - ABC, Manhattan or other?

#30

Post by Bob L » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:29 pm

I too picked up on the Triangle ad. Very cool. I'm just a bit surprised that we never found one in all of our years of digging at the Lake of the Ozarks. Jeff City is up the road from the lake. The can in the USBC & OI books was definately found in the city of St. Louis. I've talked with the guy who obtained it many years ago. The other two faded cans were rumored to have been found in Florida, but I don't know if that is really true or not.

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